AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

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montgomery
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#31

Post by montgomery » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:33 pm

Mike S wrote:I would encourage everyone who has commented to re-visit the link provided by the OP. The original video on the (activist) reporter's Twitter feed that was embedded into the Newsweek article is now showing almost 6 minutes of body cam footage. The original video (at least when I watched it on my phone yesterday morning) was only a fraction of the actual encounter (lots of yelling; pleading by the young man to not shoot him; and a seemingly compliant subject getting shot five times for adjusting his sweat pants).

This extended version demonstrates that the young man was very drunk (not belligerent; he seemed willing to comply, but unable to do so based on his state of mind), and had already been warned several times to not put his hands down/reach into his waistband/behind his back.

This extended version also shows that the police sergeant in control of the scene wasn't yelling commands the entire time; he was doing what first responders aught to do; Get Control. He yelled commands, & they both complied and got down on the floor. When they were compliant, he stopped barking commands & used a clear & even tone. He explained the gravity of following commands; he had the female subject crawl towards the officers, and in an even tone directed an officer (off camera) to secure & search her (even correcting the officer when he announced "Clear" prior to her being frisked [yes, this could be a training deficiency; I don't know how much training a non-SWAT officer receives in their basic academy for working in a dynamic team environment. It could also indicate the high stress level of the responding officers based on the call of someone having a rifle on the 5th floor window/balcony...).

When the subjects were not compliant, his tone raised & he re-asserted control. Again, this may be rude in the context of day to day life, but not in the context of exerting control over a subject who may be a threat (or, for the greater crowd on this great forum: if you ever have to exert control over an attacker who is no longer a threat of death/serious bodily injury, but needs to be controlled until first responders arrive. Use your command voice!).

Why did he command them to crawl towards the officers, rather than officers approaching to handcuff/search them? As OlBill indicated, this was in a hotel; they had just exited the door where someone had reported someone with rifle. In the extended version you see how close the room door is to where the subjects were proned out on the floor. Rifle rounds (as well as pistol rounds) will go thru most doors & walls.

Was it a justifiable use of deadly force? According to the jury who declined to convict, I'm guessing it wasn't 2nd Degree Murder. It's called the Subject's Actions + the Totality of the Circumstances. Someone called the police to report a person/people with a rifle on a 5th floor window/balcony/whatever. Officers stacked in the hallway, & subjects came out of the room. The male subject wasn't able to comply with commands, put his hands behind his back on at least one occasion prior to being shot, and made jerky erratic movement at other times. When he crawled (on command) towards the officers, he made a movement towards his waist, behind his back (I'm thinking he was pulling up his sweat pants, but I wasn't the one there).

Why didn't the other officers shoot? I assume they didn't process the young man's actions as a threat, whereas one officer did process the movement as a threat. It could be that the other officers are more seasoned, better able to handle the stressors of the job, or had a better overall assessment of the situation. It could also be that the officer that did shoot had a bad attitude or lack of professionalism [solely going there based on what TAM reported of the obscenity engraved on the dust cover of the AR-15].

Would I have taken the shot? Not likely, unless I actually saw a weapon. But I've likely trained more, been shot at a couple times more, and [generally] was able to keep my cool under stress while deployed. Not that I'm perfect; I assure you I'm not.

In the end, I'd be very cautious in making judgments based on a short video excerpt posted by someone with an agenda. Even the almost 6-minute version omits the overall background situation (or Totality of the Circumstances).

:iagree: Completely.


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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#32

Post by dlh » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:54 pm

Mike S wrote:I would encourage everyone who has commented to re-visit the link provided by the OP. The original video on the (activist) reporter's Twitter feed that was embedded into the Newsweek article is now showing almost 6 minutes of body cam footage. The original video (at least when I watched it on my phone yesterday morning) was only a fraction of the actual encounter (lots of yelling; pleading by the young man to not shoot him; and a seemingly compliant subject getting shot five times for adjusting his sweat pants).

This extended version demonstrates that the young man was very drunk (not belligerent; he seemed willing to comply, but unable to do so based on his state of mind), and had already been warned several times to not put his hands down/reach into his waistband/behind his back.

This extended version also shows that the police sergeant in control of the scene wasn't yelling commands the entire time; he was doing what first responders aught to do; Get Control. He yelled commands, & they both complied and got down on the floor. When they were compliant, he stopped barking commands & used a clear & even tone. He explained the gravity of following commands; he had the female subject crawl towards the officers, and in an even tone directed an officer (off camera) to secure & search her (even correcting the officer when he announced "Clear" prior to her being frisked [yes, this could be a training deficiency; I don't know how much training a non-SWAT officer receives in their basic academy for working in a dynamic team environment. It could also indicate the high stress level of the responding officers based on the call of someone having a rifle on the 5th floor window/balcony...).

When the subjects were not compliant, his tone raised & he re-asserted control. Again, this may be rude in the context of day to day life, but not in the context of exerting control over a subject who may be a threat (or, for the greater crowd on this great forum: if you ever have to exert control over an attacker who is no longer a threat of death/serious bodily injury, but needs to be controlled until first responders arrive. Use your command voice!).

Why did he command them to crawl towards the officers, rather than officers approaching to handcuff/search them? As OlBill indicated, this was in a hotel; they had just exited the door where someone had reported someone with rifle. In the extended version you see how close the room door is to where the subjects were proned out on the floor. Rifle rounds (as well as pistol rounds) will go thru most doors & walls.

Was it a justifiable use of deadly force? According to the jury who declined to convict, I'm guessing it wasn't 2nd Degree Murder. It's called the Subject's Actions + the Totality of the Circumstances. Someone called the police to report a person/people with a rifle on a 5th floor window/balcony/whatever. Officers stacked in the hallway, & subjects came out of the room. The male subject wasn't able to comply with commands, put his hands behind his back on at least one occasion prior to being shot, and made jerky erratic movement at other times. When he crawled (on command) towards the officers, he made a movement towards his waist, behind his back (I'm thinking he was pulling up his sweat pants, but I wasn't the one there).

Why didn't the other officers shoot? I assume they didn't process the young man's actions as a threat, whereas one officer did process the movement as a threat. It could be that the other officers are more seasoned, better able to handle the stressors of the job, or had a better overall assessment of the situation. It could also be that the officer that did shoot had a bad attitude or lack of professionalism [solely going there based on what TAM reported of the obscenity engraved on the dust cover of the AR-15].

Would I have taken the shot? Not likely, unless I actually saw a weapon. But I've likely trained more, been shot at a couple times more, and [generally] was able to keep my cool under stress while deployed. Not that I'm perfect; I assure you I'm not.

In the end, I'd be very cautious in making judgments based on a short video excerpt posted by someone with an agenda. Even the almost 6-minute version omits the overall background situation (or Totality of the Circumstances).
There is an 18 and 1/2 minute video of the incident posted over on Liveleak. It shows the police first entering the hotel and hitting the elevator buttons to go up. I would post the link but memory tells me the admins do not like Liveleak so will not do that. You can find it however by entering in the search box over there, "Body Cam Video Arizona Cop."

Thanks for your input Mike.

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parabelum
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#33

Post by parabelum » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:01 pm

This murderer should not have been acquitted. Brings great shame for LE community. I wish there was a loud protest from the LE circles against this fascist thug who doesn’t deserve to be called cop.
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#34

Post by philip964 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:16 pm

In the death of Erik Scott there was contagious fire. The first police officer fired then the others fired.

Here only one police officer fired.

Did the other officers not see the immediate threat to their lives?

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parabelum
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#35

Post by parabelum » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:34 pm

philip964 wrote:In the death of Erik Scott there was contagious fire. The first police officer fired then the others fired.

Here only one police officer fired.

Did the other officers not see the immediate threat to their lives?
No, they probably just saw a man trying to pull his pants up as he did his best under the influence to crawl. The fascist who murdered him saw an opportunity to crank out his AR on the man begging for his life.

We all were outraged at Kate’s murderer getting away with murder. I’m quite surprised to see lesser outrage here. Because he had a badge?

And moreover, this is getting to be a frequent occurance. If there is not a loud outcry, more psychopaths like this will slip through.

We have members on this forum who are diabetic or have family members who are. What if in the state of a diabetic emergency you or they are confronted by a thug like this?
You think you’ll be able to comply to a T with all these orders in that state?

Sorry, I’m deeply disappointed there is not a much louder response from LE circles against these cases (remember the lady in MN just few months ago?).

There was zero reason or excuse why another officer, under cover, couldn’t have simply cuffed this guy. And if a LEO is that scared to do that, then maybe that’s not right job for him/her.

Last thing, there are soldiers rotting in prison right now for having shot a jihadi in war theater, where it was deemed as too much, maybe rightfully so. This scum pops the guy on the floor several times while he is begging not to be shot and is free to go? Sorry. Not justice.

What would happen to you my friends if you had done this?
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#36

Post by Bushwhacker » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:22 pm

First post. I know, but I finally registered to comment on people saying this was a good shoot. How could it possibly be?

The victim was compliant and following orders as well as he could. The police had the perfect chance to arrest him when he was prone. They didn't. They decided to play Simon Says, almost like somebody was looking for an excuse to shoot him when he goofed.

An Arizona policeman is a MWAG. If somebody starts sniping at Arizona police with an AR, are those good shoots too?
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#37

Post by rotor » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:23 pm

parabelum wrote:
philip964 wrote:In the death of Erik Scott there was contagious fire. The first police officer fired then the others fired.

Here only one police officer fired.

Did the other officers not see the immediate threat to their lives?
No, they probably just saw a man trying to pull his pants up as he did his best under the influence to crawl. The fascist who murdered him saw an opportunity to crank out his AR on the man begging for his life.

We all were outraged at Kate’s murderer getting away with murder. I’m quite surprised to see lesser outrage here. Because he had a badge?

And moreover, this is getting to be a frequent occurance. If there is not a loud outcry, more psychopaths like this will slip through.

We have members on this forum who are diabetic or have family members who are. What if in the state of a diabetic emergency you or they are confronted by a thug like this?
You think you’ll be able to comply to a T with all these orders in that state?

Sorry, I’m deeply disappointed there is not a much louder response from LE circles against these cases (remember the lady in MN just few months ago?).

There was zero reason or excuse why another officer, under cover, couldn’t have simply cuffed this guy. And if a LEO is that scared to do that, then maybe that’s not right job for him/her.

Last thing, there are soldiers rotting in prison right now for having shot a jihadi in war theater, where it was deemed as too much, maybe rightfully so. This scum pops the guy on the floor several times while he is begging not to be shot and is free to go? Sorry. Not justice.

What would happen to you my friends if you had done this?
When I watched this video (at a site different than what the OP posted as his would not play on my computer) I could only think that this is what Black Lives Matter is complaining about. I really resent that group but the LEO actions seemed so bizarre and this shooting seemed so unnecessary it makes one feel that there may be a lot more to these LEO shooting of unarmed persons. Someone pointing an AR15 at me and I would have had trouble following commands. Left foot over right, no right foot over left. Did it take 5 rounds to subdue the supposed threat. Surprised they didn't make him do a calculus problem. Why not down on the ground and handcuff? The civil suit will mean nothing as the LEO will not pay anything, the citizens will get stuck with the bill. Meanwhile a husband and father is no longer with us.

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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#38

Post by C-dub » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:39 pm

parabelum wrote: We all were outraged at Kate’s murderer getting away with murder. I’m quite surprised to see lesser outrage here. Because he had a badge?
Not that it makes much difference, but once I read that the bullet that killed Kate was a ricochet I understood the acquittal from murder. When I first heard about the acquittal I was shocked because I had not heard it was a ricochet before. I am very saddened that no one will be held accountable for her death.

I am greatly disappointed in this officer's acquittal, but don't think he murdered or executed the guy. I don't know what it was exactly, but it was wrong and shouldn't have happened. It seems he was too uptight and too willing to pull the trigger. Maybe there were no other lesser charges for the jury to consider. IDK The officer may not ever work in LE again and he shouldn't. Heck, the officer that shot the "gentle giant" in MO was completely in the right and he'll probably never work in LE again either.
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#39

Post by WTR » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:41 pm

The Officer set up a no win situation for the victim by screaming contradictory orders at the guy and thus creating a fail situation for a man obviously already with compromised motor function due to alcohol ( the guy went for a gun?......give me a break). Wonder why he threatened the victim with death at every opportunity? The guy was pleading for his life. Wonder why he was the only Officer to fire? I think he did eat his Wheaties every morning thinking he would dispense his justice. Otherwise why bring you own AR to work with the obscene phrase engraved on it. I think it goes to show his mindset. I to am tired of the media referring to a Semi Automatic rifle as an assault gun just because it resembles a military assault rifle. However, I think we need to quite making excuses for these deviants and clean our own house. Otherwise, we provide fodder for the left.


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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#40

Post by eureka40 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:53 am

There were six cops on that scene, video from the motel lobby shows them getting on the elevator together. If six cops can't handle one drunk guy without shooting/killing him, that dept has a serious problem.
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#41

Post by WTR » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:22 am

WTR wrote:The Officer set up a no win situation for the victim by screaming contradictory orders at the guy and thus creating a fail situation for a man obviously already with compromised motor function due to alcohol ( the guy went for a gun?......give me a break). Wonder why he threatened the victim with death at every opportunity? The guy was pleading for his life. Wonder why he was the only Officer to fire? I think he did eat his Wheaties every morning thinking he would dispense his justice. Otherwise why bring you own AR to work with the obscene phrase engraved on it. I think it goes to show his mindset. I to am tired of the media referring to a Semi Automatic rifle as an assault gun just because it resembles a military assault rifle. However, I think we need to quit making excuses for these deviants and clean our own house. Otherwise, we provide fodder for the left.

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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#42

Post by flowrie » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:41 am

I simply can’t justify the officer shooting that young man to death.
He was prone on the floor and should have been cuffed.
However, I would like to point out that getting drunk ( 1st mistake in this situation) and then pointing what looks to be a weapon out a window ( 2nd mistake in this situation) all greatly increases the odds that something bad will happen.
The young man put himself in the situation that exponentially increased the odds that he might experience a negative outcome.
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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#43

Post by OlBill » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:36 am

Mike S wrote:I would encourage everyone who has commented to re-visit the link provided by the OP. The original video on the (activist) reporter's Twitter feed that was embedded into the Newsweek article is now showing almost 6 minutes of body cam footage. The original video (at least when I watched it on my phone yesterday morning) was only a fraction of the actual encounter (lots of yelling; pleading by the young man to not shoot him; and a seemingly compliant subject getting shot five times for adjusting his sweat pants).

This extended version demonstrates that the young man was very drunk (not belligerent; he seemed willing to comply, but unable to do so based on his state of mind), and had already been warned several times to not put his hands down/reach into his waistband/behind his back.

This extended version also shows that the police sergeant in control of the scene wasn't yelling commands the entire time; he was doing what first responders aught to do; Get Control. He yelled commands, & they both complied and got down on the floor. When they were compliant, he stopped barking commands & used a clear & even tone. He explained the gravity of following commands; he had the female subject crawl towards the officers, and in an even tone directed an officer (off camera) to secure & search her (even correcting the officer when he announced "Clear" prior to her being frisked [yes, this could be a training deficiency; I don't know how much training a non-SWAT officer receives in their basic academy for working in a dynamic team environment. It could also indicate the high stress level of the responding officers based on the call of someone having a rifle on the 5th floor window/balcony...).

When the subjects were not compliant, his tone raised & he re-asserted control. Again, this may be rude in the context of day to day life, but not in the context of exerting control over a subject who may be a threat (or, for the greater crowd on this great forum: if you ever have to exert control over an attacker who is no longer a threat of death/serious bodily injury, but needs to be controlled until first responders arrive. Use your command voice!).

Why did he command them to crawl towards the officers, rather than officers approaching to handcuff/search them? As OlBill indicated, this was in a hotel; they had just exited the door where someone had reported someone with rifle. In the extended version you see how close the room door is to where the subjects were proned out on the floor. Rifle rounds (as well as pistol rounds) will go thru most doors & walls.

Was it a justifiable use of deadly force? According to the jury who declined to convict, I'm guessing it wasn't 2nd Degree Murder. It's called the Subject's Actions + the Totality of the Circumstances. Someone called the police to report a person/people with a rifle on a 5th floor window/balcony/whatever. Officers stacked in the hallway, & subjects came out of the room. The male subject wasn't able to comply with commands, put his hands behind his back on at least one occasion prior to being shot, and made jerky erratic movement at other times. When he crawled (on command) towards the officers, he made a movement towards his waist, behind his back (I'm thinking he was pulling up his sweat pants, but I wasn't the one there).

Why didn't the other officers shoot? I assume they didn't process the young man's actions as a threat, whereas one officer did process the movement as a threat. It could be that the other officers are more seasoned, better able to handle the stressors of the job, or had a better overall assessment of the situation. It could also be that the officer that did shoot had a bad attitude or lack of professionalism [solely going there based on what TAM reported of the obscenity engraved on the dust cover of the AR-15].

Would I have taken the shot? Not likely, unless I actually saw a weapon. But I've likely trained more, been shot at a couple times more, and [generally] was able to keep my cool under stress while deployed. Not that I'm perfect; I assure you I'm not.

In the end, I'd be very cautious in making judgments based on a short video excerpt posted by someone with an agenda. Even the almost 6-minute version omits the overall background situation (or Totality of the Circumstances).
The final result was they shot and killed an unarmed man on his knees in a hotel hallway.

They never saw a gun because there wasn't one.

I would be in prison for that.


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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#44

Post by Jgallo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:09 am

All that I keep thinking about is this mans family and kids that don't have father now. I makes me very sad and sick to my stomach. I can't imagine how much pain this is causing his wife,kids, & family. Being a new father myself this is just horrible to see.

I think a taser would have been a better choice since the man was compiling with orders.

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Re: AZ: Police release graphic video of officer involved shooting of Texas man

#45

Post by DEB » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:21 pm

I spoke to my friends about this and we have come to believe that if L.E. tells you to crawl towards them, walk backwards towards them, and or etc, Just don't. Lay flat on the ground, place your arms stretched outward and just wait until someone comes over and cuffs you. Probably will get a knee in the back of the head or elsewhere, but it sure beats a bullet.
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