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Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:38 am
by rdcrags
A hypothetical CHL holder is considering carrying past 30.06 signs based on the following logic: If caught, he pays a $200 fine. If he has the weapon, he would be in a position to save his and his wife’s lives if attacked by some crazy. He believes that to be an easy choice. First question: Would that misdemeanor prevent a renewal of his license/permit? Some of the places he would violate are doctor’s offices. Even when he is the one being examined, a snubbie in a pocket holster would not be detected, he believes. But, most of the doctors they see have closed their practices and are now employees of hospitals where they still see their patients, but now located in the buildings of teaching hospitals. In fact, as a provision of their employment, they must teach, and various levels of would-be doctors are with them in the examination rooms. Second question: If detected or is forced to use the weapon, would not he be facing a felony charge? That would make his choice not so easy.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:16 am
by Jusme
This thread will garner a lot of attention.
The following is just my opinions, IANAL, and since, as you said all of these things are hypothetical, namely, because as far as I know, there have been no cases, where any of the scenarios, have occurred
In my opinion, anytime someone knowingly carries past, a legally posted 30.06 sign, they have created, a situation, that even if there are no major consequences, they start out on the wrong side of the law, no matter their personal, rationalizations. That being said, if something should happen, where that person was forced to use their gun, in a self defense, or defense of a third person, scenario, there is the hurdle, to clear, as to why they had the gun in that location. As I said, I am not a lawyer, and I don't know whether, the property, owner, or the State, would actually be the complainant, in a trespass case against the LTC holder. If it is the property owner, they can decline to press charges. However, if it is the State, or if a left leaning, prosecutor, decided to go after the LTC holder, it could turn into really bad time, both legally, and financially. Not to mention, the type of press coverage, something like that would generate. And then, since, the LTC holder, was in violation, at the time of the shooting, even if it is a clear case, of justified, self defense, the BG, and/or his family, would be able to file lawsuits, that the LTC holder would not be protected against.
While no one, likes the thought, of being in a situation, where they are disarmed, everyone has to weigh the risk/reward, of disobeying the law. JMHO
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:12 am
by Odinvalknir
IANAL, but here's my thoughts,
Situations like this are why secondary weapons and bare hand skills are important. My way of thinking is this, I just simply do not stop or shop in places posted 30.06. Plain and simple If a place has a .06 sign I will go elsewhere. If you're set on going to that place, and worried about having to defend yourself maybe think about carrying a second form of defense, like a knife, mace, taser, etc. Or build up and work on your empty handed skills.
The one place i cannot simply stay away from because of their 30.06 sign is my bank. Of course with the bank I can avoid disarming by simply not going inside. In this day and age with most stuff being available online or over the phone, or just going through the drive thru.
First time you're caught carrying in a 30.06 area, it's a $200 fine and class c misdemeanor. Repeat offenses are more severe I believe, and you begin to run the risk of losing your license and coming out of pocket a lot more money.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:17 am
by chasfm11
Jusme wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:16 am
This thread will garner a lot of attention.
The following is just my opinions, IANAL, and since, as you said all of these things are hypothetical, namely, because as far as I know, there have been no cases, where any of the scenarios, have occurred
In my opinion, anytime someone knowingly carries past, a legally posted 30.06 sign, they have created, a situation, that even if there are no major consequences, they start out on the wrong side of the law, no matter their personal, rationalizations. That being said, if something should happen, where that person was forced to use their gun, in a self defense, or defense of a third person, scenario, there is the hurdle, to clear, as to why they had the gun in that location. As I said, I am not a lawyer, and I don't know whether, the property, owner, or the State, would actually be the complainant, in a trespass case against the LTC holder. If it is the property owner, they can decline to press charges. However, if it is the State, or if a left leaning, prosecutor, decided to go after the LTC holder, it could turn into really bad time, both legally, and financially. Not to mention, the type of press coverage, something like that would generate. And then, since, the LTC holder, was in violation, at the time of the shooting, even if it is a clear case, of justified, self defense, the BG, and/or his family, would be able to file lawsuits, that the LTC holder would not be protected against.
While no one, likes the thought, of being in a situation, where they are disarmed, everyone has to weigh the risk/reward, of disobeying the law. JMHO
with your last statement. My personal decision is that I either don't go into or disarm before entering any place that is posted. But taking the concept a step further to the USACE situations, technically many of us violate the Federal "no firearms" laws and the specific responses that I've gotten from Corps employees on this forum have been that no one is going to prosecute for those offenses unless there is a "bad shoot" involved. In that case, the violation of a firearm on Corps property would be an add on charge. As far as the "good shoot" in a posted environment, I don't remember seeing a story like that anywhere and given the length of time that concealed carry has been allowed and the number of posted places, one would think that it should have already happened somewhere. Left leaning prosecutors seem to have pursued charges even when there wasn't a legal infraction or where a legal infraction was questionable, like in the Handog incident.
It would be interesting to take a poll on how many people use the drive up mailbox on Postal property with a gun in their car. Technically, that is a violation and perhaps carries more of a penalty than going past a 30.06 sign.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:21 am
by RoyGBiv
Become an emergency response volunteer. Solves some of the worry.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:09 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
This thread is very close to violating Rule 4, but 1) since it is stated as a hypothetical; and 2) it offers an excellent learning opportunity, it will stay open. That said, folks responding need to be sure their post(s) don't advocate violating Texas law.
If a location is off-limits per TPC §46.03 or §46.035, but only if 30.06 notice is given, then walking past the sign creates to criminal violations. It is a violation of TPC §30.06 (Class C) and a violation of the relevant provision in §46.035 (Class A).
Remember also that there is no retreat duty before using deadly force, if you are legally present at the location where deadly force is used. If you violate TPC §30.06 (or TPC §30.07), then you are trespassing and you are not legally present when you use deadly force. This MAY mean you have a duty to retreat before using force. (I wrote "may" for a reason, but I'm not going into that on the Forum.)
Please remember, we reduced the penalty for passing a §30.06 sign to deal with situations where law-abiding people unknowingly enter an off-limits area because they missed a sign due to it's posting location, entered with a crowd, were distracted while entering, etc. It was not reduced to encourage the most law-abiding of Texans to make the conscious decision to violate TPC §30.06.
Chas.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:22 pm
by Ruark
Another data point: most, if not all, legal protection services won't take your case if you use a firearm in self-defense but were carrying it in a place where it was illegal to do so.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:34 pm
by oljames3
Charles L. Cotton wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:09 pm
This thread is very close to violating Rule 4, but 1) since it is stated as a hypothetical; and 2) it offers an excellent learning opportunity, it will stay open. That said, folks responding need to be sure their post(s) don't advocate violating Texas law.
If a location is off-limits per TPC §46.03 or §46.035, but only if 30.06 notice is given, then walking past the sign creates to criminal violations. It is a violation of TPC §30.06 (Class C) and a violation of the relevant provision in §46.035 (Class A).
Remember also that there is no retreat duty before using deadly force, if you are legally present at the location where deadly force is used. If you violate TPC §30.06 (or TPC §30.07), then you are trespassing and you are not legally present when you use deadly force. This MAY mean you have a duty to retreat before using force. (I wrote "may" for a reason, but I'm not going into that on the Forum.)
Please remember, we reduced the penalty for passing a §30.06 sign to deal with situations where law-abiding people unknowingly enter an off-limits area because they missed a sign due to it's posting location, entered with a crowd, were distracted while entering, etc. It was not reduced to encourage the most law-abiding of Texans to make the conscious decision to violate TPC §30.06.
Chas.
Ignoring effective notice is bad. We have options. I carry a backup gun and less than lethal self defense options so that I can easily downgrade from carr openly to carrying concealed to reverting to knife, pepper gel, and run-fu.
My 21 year old son rides a Ninja with no storage. He has to plan better than I. I can leave my main pistol in my car and revert to my concealeld Ruger LCR or less than lethal methods.
There are seveal options for self defense that are not prohibited by 30.06.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:52 pm
by TomS
Even if the 30.06 sign does not meet the requirements of the law, I still respect the wishes of the establishment. You don’t want someone entering your home when you’re not there just because they may not get caught, do you?
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:11 pm
by TomS
Sometimes it just can’t be ignored, like same day surgery centers, etc.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:12 pm
by rotor
If the only restriction was 30.06 and this is all hypothetical there is always the KelTec Sub2000 relatively easily concealed and perhaps one of those new short barreled but legal shotguns. Much more effort than I would want to take but I do have a Sub2000. I just park my weapon in my car and go in if it is an absolute must go in place. Just hypothetical options.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:23 pm
by Noggin
Odinvalknir wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:12 am
IANAL, but here's my thoughts,
The one place i cannot simply stay away from because of their 30.06 sign is my bank. Of course with the bank I can avoid disarming by simply not going inside. In this day and age with most stuff being available online or over the phone, or just going through the drive thru.
Given what you said before the above quote I am surprised that you have not changed your bank. Both banks I have accounts with are sign free. At one of those banks the day my wife and I went there to open our accounts I open carried my 1911 in a leather thumbreak. I have open carried on all subsequent visits I just nod and smile at the security guard as I walk past him on the way in.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:32 pm
by imkopaka
Charles L. Cotton wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:09 pm
This thread is very close to violating Rule 4, but 1) since it is stated as a hypothetical; and 2) it offers an excellent learning opportunity, it will stay open. That said, folks responding need to be sure their post(s) don't advocate violating Texas law.
If a location is off-limits per TPC §46.03 or §46.035, but only if 30.06 notice is given, then walking past the sign creates to criminal violations. It is a violation of TPC §30.06 (Class C) and a violation of the relevant provision in §46.035 (Class A).
Remember also that there is no retreat duty before using deadly force, if you are legally present at the location where deadly force is used. If you violate TPC §30.06 (or TPC §30.07), then you are trespassing and you are not legally present when you use deadly force. This MAY mean you have a duty to retreat before using force. (I wrote "may" for a reason, but I'm not going into that on the Forum.)
Please remember, we reduced the penalty for passing a §30.06 sign to deal with situations where law-abiding people unknowingly enter an off-limits area because they missed a sign due to it's posting location, entered with a crowd, were distracted while entering, etc. It was not reduced to encourage the most law-abiding of Texans to make the conscious decision to violate TPC §30.06.
Chas.
Charles,
Isn't part of the justification clause for justified manslaughter (self-defense) that you were allowed to be in the area you were in (specifically allowed to be there WITH your licensed handgun)? And if so, would that not entirely negate the justification for deadly force under the law, making any application of deadly force fall under manslaughter or murder (or an attempt at one of these)? I suppose the imminent threat doctrine would keep it to a low level charge for one of these, but I can absolutely see a prosecutor successfully sticking someone with a manslaughter charge for using a handgun without legal justification.
Re: Gun free zone question
Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:33 pm
by Lynyrd
TomS wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:52 pm
Even if the 30.06 sign does not meet the requirements of the law, I still respect the wishes of the establishment. You don’t want someone entering your home when you’re not there just because they may not get caught, do you?
I try to be a good example of a responsible gun owner and LTC holder. I try to respect the wishes of the owners of private property, and have even left a private residence when asked to because of my gun. The only places that really give me problems are medical facilities. I visited a friend in a posted hospital today, and even though there were no signs on the door that I entered I still disarmed before going in.