Protests - the next level?

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chasfm11
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Protests - the next level?

#1

Post by chasfm11 » Sat May 30, 2020 8:30 pm

I drove through a protest today. I didn't realize what it was until I was through it because I happened to catch a turn lane on a green light. But it was a suddenly sobering thing for me.

This protest was happening at a major intersection (6 lanes crossing 6 lanes) in an outlying Dallas suburb. I had just seen part of what was going on as the protestors, all clad in the same color t-shirt, were out into traffic. When the light changed, their movement back to the side of the road momentarily blocked traffic as no one wanted to run over them.

The protestors were all large framed males and I would guess that they will all under 40, perhaps even under 30. There were not many - maybe 9. I learned later that there had been a larger crowd on the side of one of the roads but that those people hadn't ventured out among the cars. I pulled into a shopping center parking lot just as a local police officer arrived. He exited his vehicle and walked out to talk to them. I waited and watched. They all came back to a large passenger van, loaded and left. Clearly, they were not from the area.

On the surface, this wouldn't seem like a big deal . But just this morning, I watched a video of protestors blocking a six lane road. While the people were stopped and with no place to turn away. some of the protesters broke from the crowd, moved up through the stopped cars and started using pipes or other metal objects to smash the cars, many targeting the driver's side windows. That video was fresh in my mind.

I'll digress to offer a little context. I'm an activist. I've attended many protests of dozens, hundreds and even thousands of people . I've protested with signs at the Austin capital. I'm all for people exercising their right to protest. Yelling and chanting, holding up obnoxious signs, at least for me, is part of protesting. Violence is not. It stops being a protest and starts being something else, depending on what actually takes place.

Like most people on this forum, I suspect, I do not expect to directly confront violence in my lifetime. I carry every day but believe that that because I do and am very aware of not putting myself into places where I might need my firearm, I'm actually "safer" than I was before I got my LTC. With our current situation, I believe that all bets are now off.

This leads me to what is probably a rhetorical question: what do I do if I'm suddenly in a protest that goes to the next level. A part of me says that getting my driver's side window smashed is a small price to pay for staying safe. On the other hand, the protesters in the video were trying to haul people out of their cars. I cannot imagine how things get better after that happens. Yes, I keep my doors locked at all times but once a window is smashed, particularly if I've had to shield my head from the imploding debris, keeping the door locked is not guaranteed.

So should I take my tin foil hat over and sit in the corner or is the question a valid concern?
Last edited by chasfm11 on Sat May 30, 2020 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: Protests - the next level?

#2

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sat May 30, 2020 8:46 pm

chasfm11 wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:30 pm
I drove through a protest today. I didn't realize what it was until I was through it because I happened to catch a turn lane on a green light. But it was a suddenly sobering thing for me.

This protest was happening at a major intersection (6 lanes crossing 6 lanes) in an outlying Dallas suburb. I had just seen part of what was going on as the protestors, all clad in the same color t-shirt, were out into traffic. When the light changed, their movement back to the side of the road momentarily blocked traffic as no one wanted to run over them.

The protestors were all large framed males and I would guess that they will all under 40, perhaps even under 30. There were not many - maybe 9. I learned later that there had been a larger crowd on the side of one of the roads but that those people hadn't ventured out among the cars. I pulled into a shopping center parking lot just as a local police officer arrived. He exited his vehicle and walked out to talk to them. I waited and watched. They all came back to a large passenger van, loaded and left. Clearly, they were not from the area.

On the surface, this wouldn't seem like a big deal . But just this morning, I watched a video of protestors blocking a six lane road. While the people were stopped and with no place to turn away. some of the protesters broke from the crowd, moved up through the stopped cars and started using pipes or other metal objects to smash the cars, many targeting the driver's side windows. That video was fresh in my mind.

I'll digress to offer a little context. I'm an activist. I've attended many protests of dozens, hundreds and even thousands of people . I've protested with signs at the Austin capital. I'm all for people exercising their right to protest. Yelling and chanting, holding up obnoxious signs, at least for me, is part of protesting. Violence is not. It stops be a protest and starts being something else, depending on what actually takes place.

Like most people on this forum, I suspect, I do not expect to directly confront violence in my lifetime. I carry every day but believe that that because I do and am very aware of not putting myself into places where I might need my firearm, I'm actually "safer" than I was before I got my LTC. With our current situation, I believe that all bets are now off.

This leads me to what is probably a rhetorical question: what do I do if I'm suddenly in a protest that goes to the next level. A part of me says that getting my driver's side window smashed is a small price to pay for staying safe. On the other hand, the protesters in the video were trying to haul people out of their cars. I cannot imagine how things get better after that happens. Yes, I keep my doors locked at all times but once a window is smashed, particularly if I've had to shield my head from the imploding debris, keeping the door locked is not guaranteed.

So should I take my tin foil hat over and sit in the corner or is the question a valid concern?
I don't pretend to know how many I would have to shoot but breaking my window and attempting to drag me out of the car is suffecient reason to use deadly force to protect myself.

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Re: Protests - the next level?

#3

Post by carlson1 » Sat May 30, 2020 9:04 pm

This isn’t protest this is all unlawful actions. The protesters who want their voices heard are loosing ground and their righteous message is being covered by the law breakers and their unrighteousness acts. Sad for America to allow these thugs to have control.

I am sure glad you got out safe.

I have no clue what the answer to your question is. I would suspect every one on here has a different thought.
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:46 pm
I don't pretend to know how many I would have to shoot but breaking my window and attempting to drag me out of the car is suffecient reason to use deadly force to protect myself.
:iagree:

I seldom go to Dallas, but a few years ago I found a way to lock an AR in my vehicles so I do not leave home for any length of time that I do not have an AR with me. I pray everyday that I don’t find myself in a position as was said above to need to use a firearm. As chasfm11 said though it happened pretty quick for him.
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chasfm11
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Re: Protests - the next level?

#4

Post by chasfm11 » Sat May 30, 2020 9:41 pm

To underscore my concern about how quickly things escalate, here are some pictures from Austin

I've personally protested at the same spot and never felt the need to tear down the lights or spray paint the building. I'd bet that a large percentage of the pictured protestors don't even know the name of the man who died. This has turned into nothing more than an opportunity to move closer to anarchy.

On balance, I'm not sure how deadly force would play into the situation. I've resumed carrying more spare mags.
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Re: Protests - the next level?

#5

Post by philip964 » Sat May 30, 2020 9:46 pm

chasfm11 wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:30 pm
I drove through a protest today. I didn't realize what it was until I was through it because I happened to catch a turn lane on a green light. But it was a suddenly sobering thing for me.

This protest was happening at a major intersection (6 lanes crossing 6 lanes) in an outlying Dallas suburb. I had just seen part of what was going on as the protestors, all clad in the same color t-shirt, were out into traffic. When the light changed, their movement back to the side of the road momentarily blocked traffic as no one wanted to run over them.

The protestors were all large framed males and I would guess that they will all under 40, perhaps even under 30. There were not many - maybe 9. I learned later that there had been a larger crowd on the side of one of the roads but that those people hadn't ventured out among the cars. I pulled into a shopping center parking lot just as a local police officer arrived. He exited his vehicle and walked out to talk to them. I waited and watched. They all came back to a large passenger van, loaded and left. Clearly, they were not from the area.

On the surface, this wouldn't seem like a big deal . But just this morning, I watched a video of protestors blocking a six lane road. While the people were stopped and with no place to turn away. some of the protesters broke from the crowd, moved up through the stopped cars and started using pipes or other metal objects to smash the cars, many targeting the driver's side windows. That video was fresh in my mind.

I'll digress to offer a little context. I'm an activist. I've attended many protests of dozens, hundreds and even thousands of people . I've protested with signs at the Austin capital. I'm all for people exercising their right to protest. Yelling and chanting, holding up obnoxious signs, at least for me, is part of protesting. Violence is not. It stops being a protest and starts being something else, depending on what actually takes place.

Like most people on this forum, I suspect, I do not expect to directly confront violence in my lifetime. I carry every day but believe that that because I do and am very aware of not putting myself into places where I might need my firearm, I'm actually "safer" than I was before I got my LTC. With our current situation, I believe that all bets are now off.

This leads me to what is probably a rhetorical question: what do I do if I'm suddenly in a protest that goes to the next level. A part of me says that getting my driver's side window smashed is a small price to pay for staying safe. On the other hand, the protesters in the video were trying to haul people out of their cars. I cannot imagine how things get better after that happens. Yes, I keep my doors locked at all times but once a window is smashed, particularly if I've had to shield my head from the imploding debris, keeping the door locked is not guaranteed.

So should I take my tin foil hat over and sit in the corner or is the question a valid concern?
https://www.alligator.org/news/crime/ma ... a38b0.html

https://www.kget.com/news/local-news/ba ... king-girl/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 283621002/

https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter ... EV6FwrB7gA

https://www.news18.com/news/world/inten ... 45333.html

There is now a lot of people being arrested for driving through protests.

If you remember a white suprematist was sentenced to life for driving through a crowd and a woman died of a heart attack, no touched by his car.

Seeing the video of the young man beating the daylights out of a car window with a driver in side scares me a lot.

Drive to get away your arrested. Shoot your arrested.
Last edited by philip964 on Sat May 30, 2020 11:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Protests - the next level?

#6

Post by jb2012 » Sat May 30, 2020 9:57 pm

philip964 wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:46 pm
chasfm11 wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:30 pm
I drove through a protest today. I didn't realize what it was until I was through it because I happened to catch a turn lane on a green light. But it was a suddenly sobering thing for me.

This protest was happening at a major intersection (6 lanes crossing 6 lanes) in an outlying Dallas suburb. I had just seen part of what was going on as the protestors, all clad in the same color t-shirt, were out into traffic. When the light changed, their movement back to the side of the road momentarily blocked traffic as no one wanted to run over them.

The protestors were all large framed males and I would guess that they will all under 40, perhaps even under 30. There were not many - maybe 9. I learned later that there had been a larger crowd on the side of one of the roads but that those people hadn't ventured out among the cars. I pulled into a shopping center parking lot just as a local police officer arrived. He exited his vehicle and walked out to talk to them. I waited and watched. They all came back to a large passenger van, loaded and left. Clearly, they were not from the area.

On the surface, this wouldn't seem like a big deal . But just this morning, I watched a video of protestors blocking a six lane road. While the people were stopped and with no place to turn away. some of the protesters broke from the crowd, moved up through the stopped cars and started using pipes or other metal objects to smash the cars, many targeting the driver's side windows. That video was fresh in my mind.

I'll digress to offer a little context. I'm an activist. I've attended many protests of dozens, hundreds and even thousands of people . I've protested with signs at the Austin capital. I'm all for people exercising their right to protest. Yelling and chanting, holding up obnoxious signs, at least for me, is part of protesting. Violence is not. It stops being a protest and starts being something else, depending on what actually takes place.

Like most people on this forum, I suspect, I do not expect to directly confront violence in my lifetime. I carry every day but believe that that because I do and am very aware of not putting myself into places where I might need my firearm, I'm actually "safer" than I was before I got my LTC. With our current situation, I believe that all bets are now off.

This leads me to what is probably a rhetorical question: what do I do if I'm suddenly in a protest that goes to the next level. A part of me says that getting my driver's side window smashed is a small price to pay for staying safe. On the other hand, the protesters in the video were trying to haul people out of their cars. I cannot imagine how things get better after that happens. Yes, I keep my doors locked at all times but once a window is smashed, particularly if I've had to shield my head from the imploding debris, keeping the door locked is not guaranteed.

So should I take my tin foil hat over and sit in the corner or is the question a valid concern?
https://www.alligator.org/news/crime/ma ... a38b0.html

https://www.kget.com/news/local-news/ba ... king-girl/

There is now a lot of people being arrested for driving through protests.
That appears to be someone just driving through crowds, which they should be charged for. I wonder what the outcome would be with the protestors blocking streets/highways.


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Re: Protests - the next level?

#7

Post by parabelum » Sat May 30, 2020 10:00 pm

While I do understand the anger, I’m there too, over what has happened in MN, I can tell you that rioters and looters I have no tolerance for. To cause property damage and throw rocks at the stores and people who have nothing to do with this is counterproductive and hurts the cause.
As for me, I pray never to get in the middle of it and I’ll keep away, but if pushed into corner I’ll stand my ground and defend myself accordingly.
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Re: Protests - the next level?

#8

Post by cirus » Sat May 30, 2020 10:17 pm

If a mob attacks my vehicle and tries to drag me out it wont end well. As far as protesting goes I've got no problem as long as they stay out of the road. When they start disrupting traffic and blocking people from going down the road I wont feel sorry when they get run over. The older i get the less compassion i have for idiots.

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Re: Protests - the next level?

#9

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat May 30, 2020 11:32 pm

Your car packs more impact energy than any handgun. If someone is trying to smash their way into my car, they’re going to get run over....end of story. You might be able to shoot your way out of a deadly confrontation with one or two people, but you can't shoot your way out of a confrontation with more people than you have bullets in your gun. I have no clue if it’s the right answer from a legal perspective, but I’d rather explain to a judge that I ran over an attacker while trying to evade a mob, than explain why I stopped in the middle of that mob and stared shooting....EVEN IF it seemed like the only option I had left at the time. And by the way, this is a powerful argument for having a dash cam running, to bolster your defense in court, in case you do have to use your front bumper to punt someone into the next county.

I am by no means against using a handgun for self defense, but it may not be the best tool for the job when you have a 2-3 ton vehicle at your disposal, and you’re safely inside of it.
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Re: Protests - the next level?

#10

Post by grim-bob » Sun May 31, 2020 12:00 am

Here you go. Just happened in Dallas. Not sure why the guy picked a big knife to try and use to protect his business but maybe that's all he had. Hoping the guy isn't dead as some are saying.

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Re: Protests - the next level?

#11

Post by AndyC » Sun May 31, 2020 1:35 am

I was caught in a protest/riot in Cape Town one day - right out of the blue hundreds of guys came jogging past the car, chanting. I did what any sensible guy would do - I rolled down the window, put a huge smile on my dial and waved my fist in the air, yelling 'Amandla! Viva, viva!'

Sometimes fitting-in is an escape; they had some obvious destination in mind and I appeared to be a supporter, so... I guess I didn't act like a target.
Last edited by AndyC on Sun May 31, 2020 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Protests - the next level?

#12

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Sun May 31, 2020 1:38 am

AndyC wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:35 am
I was caught in a protest/riot in Cape Town one day - right out of the blue hundreds of guys came jogging past the car, chanting. I did what any sensible guy would do - I rolled down the window, put a huge smile on my dial and waved my fist in the air, yelling 'Amandla! Viva, viva!'

Sometimes fitting-in is an escape.
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Re: Protests - the next level?

#13

Post by grim-bob » Sun May 31, 2020 1:56 am

The ol' "go along to get along" approach.... Can't say I wouldn't do the same in that position!!!
Josh

Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Re: Protests - the next level?

#14

Post by K.Mooneyham » Sun May 31, 2020 2:59 am

AndyC wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:35 am
I was caught in a protest/riot in Cape Town one day - right out of the blue hundreds of guys came jogging past the car, chanting. I did what any sensible guy would do - I rolled down the window, put a huge smile on my dial and waved my fist in the air, yelling 'Amandla! Viva, viva!'

Sometimes fitting-in is an escape; they had some obvious destination in mind and I appeared to be a supporter, so... I guess I didn't act like a target.
Andy, I know you have been exposed to violent situations in the past. Also, I hope I'm asking this in a rhetorical sort of way. What happens to a crowd, not soldiers or trained insurgents, but a crowd, when shooting starts? Do they all continue as if nothing happened? Or, do they tend to scurry away as fast as humanly possible? (BTW, for the record, I am NOT advocating for anything here, just asking a question.)


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Re: Protests - the next level?

#15

Post by chasfm11 » Sun May 31, 2020 5:44 am

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 11:32 pm
Your car packs more impact energy than any handgun. If someone is trying to smash their way into my car, they’re going to get run over....end of story. You might be able to shoot your way out of a deadly confrontation with one or two people, but you can't shoot your way out of a confrontation with more people than you have bullets in your gun. I have no clue if it’s the right answer from a legal perspective, but I’d rather explain to a judge that I ran over an attacker while trying to evade a mob, than explain why I stopped in the middle of that mob and stared shooting....EVEN IF it seemed like the only option I had left at the time. And by the way, this is a powerful argument for having a dash cam running, to bolster your defense in court, in case you do have to use your front bumper to punt someone into the next county.

I am by no means against using a handgun for self defense, but it may not be the best tool for the job when you have a 2-3 ton vehicle at your disposal, and you’re safely inside of it.
To be clear, my situation was one where, by the time I got to the intersection, no one was blocking my way or even attempting to do so. That had not been the case less than a minute before for the drivers 10 cars ahead of me. If the path forward is my only path out of the situation (middle of 3 lanes headed in my direction and cars behind me) I'll try to take that.

But the video I had seen left no drive-way option. The cars were pinned on all sides and with the protesters in front. Now the energy of the car is useless. And had the protestors continued to stop the cars in front of me, that was my exact situation. I wasn't going to run over anyone because there was no room to move the car in any direction. It is under those circumstances that the next level starts.

I've pondered getting a dash cam. But as others have pointed out in links, the facts may not matter in legal cases. The angle on any video can be critiqued as not fully representative of the situation.

Thanks for all of the links to other situations from other posters.
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