German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

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Jim Beaux
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German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#1

Post by Jim Beaux » Tue May 20, 2014 9:16 am

This incident is outrageous in so many ways it's difficult to know where to begin!

A homeowner is accused of setting a trap after he kills a burglar in his garage. The burglar happens to be a 17 yr old German exchange student. (Ironically, the homeowner is named "Kaarma").

Regardless of whether the homeowner is guilty, the fact that Montana takes an ambiguous position on Germany's claim is an outrage in its self.

I had to read the article twice it was so outrageous.
"...you might find it useful to know that German penal law also applies for crimes committed against German nationals abroad, enabling German state prosecutors to open investigations in such cases." [Consul General of the Federal Republic of Germany, Peter Rothen]
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/19/ge ... n-montana/
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anygunanywhere
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#2

Post by anygunanywhere » Tue May 20, 2014 9:27 am

Jim Beaux wrote:This incident is outrageous in so many ways it's difficult to know where to begin!

A homeowner is accused of setting a trap after he kills a burglar in his garage. The burglar happens to be a 17 yr old German exchange student. (Ironically, the homeowner is named "Kaarma").

Regardless of whether the homeowner is guilty, the fact that Montana takes an ambiguous position on Germany's claim is an outrage in its self.

I had to read the article twice it was so outrageous.
"...you might find it useful to know that German penal law also applies for crimes committed against German nationals abroad, enabling German state prosecutors to open investigations in such cases." [Consul General of the Federal Republic of Germany, Peter Rothen]
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/05/19/ge ... n-montana/
Germany can claim whatever they want but that does not make it law.

Federal and state authorities can go along with Germany however they want but that does not make it right.

This is one instance where our Constitution and inherent freedoms and protection might come to a defining moment.

If so, the recent Nevada standoff might seem like a party in comparison if I hold our brethren in Montana correctly.

Anygunanywhere
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#3

Post by RoyGBiv » Tue May 20, 2014 9:36 am

We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.

This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#4

Post by anygunanywhere » Tue May 20, 2014 9:59 am

RoyGBiv wrote:We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.

This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
If it is indeed murder then he should be tried under US and/or Montana law, not German law.

Anygunanywhere
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#5

Post by RoyGBiv » Tue May 20, 2014 11:35 am

anygunanywhere wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.

This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
If it is indeed murder then he should be tried under US and/or Montana law, not German law.

Anygunanywhere
I never intended to suggest otherwise.
The Germans are just putting political pressure on MT authorities.... As would I.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#6

Post by VMI77 » Tue May 20, 2014 1:19 pm

It is not only outrageous political supplication, but complete hogwash. How was the home owner supposed to know the intruder was a German citizen or what German law is? Nothing in US law requires us to identify the country of origin of an attacker before using deadly force. Better watch out for this becoming any kind of precedent, since prosecuting this guy because of German law and citizenship will give illegals from Latin American a free pass for burglary and assault. This is a sovereign nation, the German citizen came here subject to OUR laws. He assumed all risks of violating US law, just like a US citizen in Germany assumes the risk of violating German law.
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#7

Post by Jim Beaux » Tue May 20, 2014 1:43 pm

RoyGBiv wrote:We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.

This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.

No comparison. One case is a matter of international law, and the other is a matter of Constitutional rights for an American accused of a domestic crime. Regardless of physical location, the US was justified in charging Chinese Military for its "virtual" incursions.

Within the borders of the US, we are judge by a jury of our peers. This cannot be allowed to "play out". Germany should be told in no uncertain terms to pound sand.
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#8

Post by Cedar Park Dad » Tue May 20, 2014 1:54 pm

anygunanywhere wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:We just brought up some Chinese military officials on charges even though they never set foot in the USA. Not exactly apples/apples, I agree, given that they were accused of cybertheft from USA-based companies. That said, the Germans may very well be within rights to charge for a crime committed against a German citizen in the USA.... I dunno German law... But, I would certainly want my murderer brought up on charges if I was killed in, say, Mexico, and my family felt that justice was not done.

This will play out in some orderly fashion. I don't see any news here. The folks in MT are protecting their relationship with German tourism and I don't blame them. Politics. In the end, it seems unlikely anybody will be extradited for a crime they were not found guilty of here. The Germans are putting political pressure on MT to make sure justice is done. As I would expect the US to do (although maybe not John Kerry) if the situation was reversed.
If it is indeed murder then he should be tried under US and/or Montana law, not German law.

Anygunanywhere

It won't be. To be criminally tried in a US court, the law of the jurisdiction must apply. He could be charged in Germany, but he could anyway. Extraditing someone is a completely different ball of wax. Good luck with that Lowenbrau boy.

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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#9

Post by sjfcontrol » Tue May 20, 2014 5:09 pm

Good thing the person killed didn't come from someplace that practiced Sharia law. :patriot:
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#10

Post by CowboyEngineer » Tue May 20, 2014 7:02 pm

Rule #1: Don't go "shopping" in someone else's garage

Rule #2: If you shoot someone, shut up and get a lawyer

Rule #3: Tell your girlfriend to shut up too
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#11

Post by Oldgringo » Tue May 20, 2014 8:14 pm

Last edited by Oldgringo on Tue May 20, 2014 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#12

Post by WildBill » Tue May 20, 2014 8:37 pm

Oldgringo wrote:From today" MISSOULIAN: http://missoulian.com/news/local/shoote ... 963f4.html
Thanks for the update Oldgringo.
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#13

Post by gigag04 » Tue May 20, 2014 10:42 pm

Maybe we should make flags with our likeness that say "Came and take ME"?
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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#14

Post by EEllis » Wed May 21, 2014 3:37 am

I don't get it. We invaded a country and took their Pres. away in chains for violations of US law but the idea that German law allows it to prosecute a crime against their citizens that happen out of the county is some big deal? Just stay out of Germany after killing a German and move on. Their courts can do whatever they want it has no bearing on this case or what the US courts do.

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Re: German Penal Law Applies in Montana Shooting???

#15

Post by DEB » Sun May 25, 2014 5:52 pm

EEllis wrote:I don't get it. We invaded a country and took their Pres. away in chains for violations of US law but the idea that German law allows it to prosecute a crime against their citizens that happen out of the county is some big deal? Just stay out of Germany after killing a German and move on. Their courts can do whatever they want it has no bearing on this case or what the US courts do.
I believe it is a big deal, no country should dictate anything to us. I believe it always depends on who can whup whom. We can whup the Panamanians and most everyone else we choose, at least currently. We did and still can whup the Germans, IMO I don't care what they or any other Country thinks, especially European. It angers me to no end to hear our Nation's leadership worry about what England and the rest of Europe thinks and does. If Montana finds this Gentleman guilty of a crime, then Montana will take care of the problem, we are still the Alpha Dog. :patriot:
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