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Bob in Big D wrote:I hope some have heard the expression "discretion is the better part of valor" (It is good to be brave, but it is also good to be careful.; If you are careful, you will not get into situations that require you to be brave)

This is similar to the statement that "a truly superior pilot is one who uses his/her superior judgment to avoid situations that require him/her to exercise his/her superior skills".

We are raising a country of wimps. Very few people will stand up for themselves anymore. People are so afraid of confrontation that they will allow themselves to be mistreated in order to make the confrontation go away. I watched a grown man eat a meal at a restaraunt the other day that he didnt order because the waiter was a little confrontational about what he had ordered. I heard him order and he was right but when he tried to get the waiter to change it, he argued about it in an elevated voice and the poor man just said "thats ok, ill just eat this". No way! I dont always handle things the right way but no one will ever say i was bullied or didnt stand up for what was right. If you are using language, playing music, showing matierial that i dont feel is appropriate, I will politely request that you stop. If asking you to stop causes you to bow up and put your hands on my buggy i will most likely smack you in the head with a can of corn......just sayin.

I've been on both sides of this... asking people to quit swearing in front of my little brothers and being in a group of friends who were asked to quit swearing in front of younger children. I've also never seen a simple request for good manners turn into a verbal confrontation, let alone a fist fight. Usually the people cursing sheepishly apologize and at least make an attempt to calm it down.

Based on that personal experience, it seems some of you are being a bit harsh on the OP for not assuming that this was going to turn into a possible deadly force scenario. After being ragged on for it, I'm sure he won't make that "mistake" again.

Granted, the OP could have phrased his words better. The guy obviously wasn't mentally an adult, scolding him like a child was asking for trouble. Now he has to prove he isn't by acting more like one... ironic, but that's how it works.

If someone tried to get up in my face while I had a kid I was responsible for with me and he had several buddies, I would also start thinking that this was going south quick, despite how it got there. Would I shoot some guy in Wal-Mart for putting me on edge? No, I'd attempt to shrug it off with a, "Hey man, it was just a request, didn't mean to offend you." It's hard to look like a tough guy when your victim's apologizing. It's a way to hand him the win, use him as a teaching tool for your son later, and no one gets shot or arrested.

If he can't accept his victory and just has to beat you up, well that's his choice, and everyone gets to live with the consequences. You're at a disadvantage because engaging in a fist fight while carrying a holstered gun isn't going to be fun, and pulling that gun in this situation could arguably be worse. This thread might save quite a few people from ending up here, and so it has served its purpose.

That's why we have this forum, so we can all learn from and debate situations like this. I still say the OP made out ok on this, because he didn't draw his weapon, but he was lucky that the loudmouth didn't push the situation, otherwise we'd be hearing about this on the news.

Fangs wrote:Based on that personal experience, it seems some of you are being a bit harsh on the OP for not assuming that this was going to turn into a possible deadly force scenario. After being ragged on for it, I'm sure he won't make that "mistake" again.

......

That's why we have this forum, so we can all learn from and debate situations like this. I still say the OP made out ok on this, because he didn't draw his weapon, but he was lucky that the loudmouth didn't push the situation, otherwise we'd be hearing about this on the news.

Just my opinion here, but it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Here is a simple truth to remember: When you are carrying a lethal weapon, EVERY scenario can turn into a deadly force scenario. Why? Because YOU brought a deadly weapon to it. It might start as a fistfight, but if someone gains control of your weapon, it can turn deadly in a heartbeat.

I kinda left it open for everyone to make up their own mind on the matter. It sure opened my eyes to the fact that I'd have to be more careful in a situation like that. Comments like telling the OP to leave his gun at home just seem to insult more than teach anything.

If I were in such a position as the OP before reading this thread, I would have done something very similar. Now I won't. I learned something.

It's pure luck that the OP isn't in a huge legal mess right now. I hope he realizes that and adjusts his future actions. I was only saying it turned out all right because no one got shot and no one's sitting in a jail cell. I'm in no way suggesting that he should do it again.

There was just a certain aspect of constructive criticism missing from several posts... the constructive part.

I'm not letting anyone off easy for provoking an armed urinating contest while armed with a deadly weapon. It is a fairly serious matter, and I feel the appropriate amount of objection and rebuke was shared by the majority. Granted, my take doesn't mean squat since I'm doing well to moderate my self, much less others.

I'm glad that people are learning and getting other perspectives.

Sorry for the hijack, but I just noticed the following statement in a previous post:

We are raising a country of wimps.

I have to agree. The reason I bring this up is that I caught a comedian named Ralphie May on TV the other night doing his stand-up routine in Austin. Watch this guy. He is hilarious (might offend some with his stuff, but what comedian doesn't offend somebody?) and very merrily attacks the concept of Political Correctness.

He is fat and he is European-American (watch his stuff and see why I say that).

PeteCamp wrote: Here is a simple truth to remember: When you are carrying a lethal weapon, EVERY scenario can turn into a deadly force scenario. Why? Because YOU brought a deadly weapon to it. It might start as a fistfight, but if someone gains control of your weapon, it can turn deadly in a heartbeat.

There seems to be the perception that these types of scenarios turn into deadly force situations because we carry.

This is total nonsense.

Every situation in life can turn into a deadly force scenario regardless of whether you are packing or not.

Yes we need to learn how to handle these things because we are packing and have more of a responsibility to control ourselves. We don't want to go to slide lock over cursing, but in the end that is the decision of the one doing the cursing. We must use adequate judgement and warnings to avoid the consequences of someone else's actions.

I do not tolerate rude behavior around Mrs. Anygun, my children, my grandchildren, or others that I love. When I am alone I am typically more generous with the rude behavior.

The OP did pretty well, imnsho, and he will learn from it and be a more intelligent CHLer in the future.

Anygunanywhere

There seems to be the perception that these types of scenarios turn into deadly force situations because we carry.

This is total nonsense.

There is no perception that these turn into deadly force scenarios because we carry. You suggested that.

It might start as a fistfight, but if someone gains control of your weapon, it can turn deadly in a heartbeat.

I think you are obviously ignoring the clear implications of what I said. Obviously, it is not owning or carrying a gun per se that is a danger. It is the simple truth that any fight can turn deadly if there is a deadly weapon involved. Since you have grandchildren, I would think you should understand the risks of a scuffle or fistfight with a much younger man when you are carrying a deadly weapon on your side. This is certainly not a condemnation of carrying. It is a call to use good judgement when confronting idiots such as the OP described.

As to a country of wimps. Perhaps. But surely someone is not a wimp if he doesn't choose to correct every instance of bad manners he encounters every day with the risk of having to pull a deadly weapon to end the lesson? Standing up for what is right? Certainly. Not being bullied? Absolutely. Dealing with a waiter? No problem. Going to prison over some stupid clown who runs his mouth and forces me to act even more stupidly than he and draw a weapon? Not hardly.

PeteCamp wrote: Here is a simple truth to remember: When you are carrying a lethal weapon, EVERY scenario can turn into a deadly force scenario.

No, you said it. I quoted you.

PeteCamp wrote:I think you are obviously ignoring the clear implications of what I said. Obviously, it is not owning or carrying a gun per se that is a danger. It is the simple truth that any fight can turn deadly if there is a deadly weapon involved. Since you have grandchildren, I would think you should understand the risks of a scuffle or fistfight with a much younger man when you are carrying a deadly weapon on your side. This is certainly not a condemnation of carrying. It is a call to use good judgement when confronting idiots such as the OP described.

As to a country of wimps. Perhaps. But surely someone is not a wimp if he doesn't choose to correct every instance of bad manners he encounters every day with the risk of having to pull a deadly weapon to end the lesson? Standing up for what is right? Certainly. Not being bullied? Absolutely. Dealing with a waiter? No problem. Going to prison over some stupid clown who runs his mouth and forces me to act even more stupidly than he and draw a weapon? Not hardly.

You are still saying that the fact that someone has in their posession a deadly weapon, that this makes the encounter deadly if it escalates. Using your words, yes, fistfights can be deadly, so your insistence that our handguns make them more so is in fact nonsense. ALL encounters can turn deadly. The presence of a firearm does not make it more deadly. The presence of a firearm makes them more fair and equal, and in probably more cases than you would admit, the presence of a firearms makes them more civil.

I did not use the term wimps. I do not accept the implication that just because I carry I should allow others to continue being rude to me.

I do understand the issues the OP had and I agree totally with what he did. It could have been handled better, but he is learning. Teach him. Do not tear him down.

Anygunanywhere

Being a wimp and having a sense of discretion are two exclusive concepts. Deciding not to confront an obnoxious fool and his cohorts does not necessarily make one a wimp.

"Discretion is the better part of valor" (I probably ruined that).

"a truly superior CHL Holder is one who uses his/her superior judgment to avoid situations that require him/her to exercise his/her superior Gun skills".

with apologies to LarryH

PeteCamp wrote:

There seems to be the perception that these types of scenarios turn into deadly force situations because we carry.

This is total nonsense.

There is no perception that these turn into deadly force scenarios because we carry. You suggested that.

I don't presume to speak for Mr. Camp. But, I think you guys might be missing each other. The way I am reading what he said is that any encounter CAN turn into a deadly force encounter, because at least one gun is present (brought by the CHL holder). What I read from your posts is that you are taking his comment to mean that the encounter must inevitably end up as deadly force if there is any escalation.

In LE we are taught that there is at least one gun at every call we make, because we brought it. In my opinion this parallels what is being said by Mr. Camp, that the ever looming deadly weapon is always there. It sure doesn't have to escalate to a deadly force scenario, but the potential is always there.

Thus - in light of that potential, why look to escalate the scenario? I understand being offended by foul language in front of loved ones. However, the way that it was presented by the OP - he was confrontational, and what he said could easily be construed as "fightin' words" by many of the types of people portrayed. In situations where one feels the need to correct the ills of society, it is not really what you say, but how you say it.

When the CSI people and detectives show up at that scene, the witnesses will describe how the CHL holder approached the group in a confrontational manner, and began an argument over their language. It turned to yelling and then got physical. The CHL holder pulls his weapon and starts shooting the group members due to the disparity of force and for being in "fear of his life." The detectives will ask the question "how many opportunities did the CHL holder have to remove him/her-self from that situation?" This is beginning to touch on that standard of reasonableness. The prosecutor that gets the case will pitch it from the perspective of the sheer multitude of opportunities to deescalate, diffuse, and use some verbal judo, to get out of pinch that the CHL holder did not take advantage of. Now they can begin to build motive (if he/she passed by all these opportunities he/she WANTED to fight).

As posted earlier, if like minded people here don't find it reasonable, it will be worse in a jury of 12 peers (of people that can't figure out how to get out of jury duty....jk).


These loved ones for whom we correct the ills of society would much rather have you with them, than in prison or dead. This is a constant reminder I carry with me when I'm on the street. Chasing a crackhead into a crack house and taking everyone to jail might be fun, and cool, but if I have to make radical compromises in officer safety or integrity to do so, it just isn't worth it. I'm not putting my family through that, just to get a crack head of the streets. That said, there are safe and reasonable ways to get crack heads off the streets, so I have to make sure I am doing THAT way.

PLUS add the fact that everyone there will have their cell phone camreas going full blast AFTER the fracas starts. Who will be the BG in those photos?

PS:
Who gets the penalty in the football games, the puncher or the retaliating punchee?

Thank you giga04....That was exactly my point and as you say, one drummed into our heads. I apologize if I just couldn't make myself clear.

anygun....I wasn't addressing you in particular about the wimp issue. Simply commenting.

However, two things are clear. The OP asked for comment on how he handled the situation. Again, respectfully, if one doesn't wish comment, then one should not solicit them. Secondly, disagreeing with the way he handled the situation is not tearing him down. On the contrary, almost every person who has responded to his request for comments has offered some thoughts for his consideration. How much he learns from this is up to him.