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To blame the gun would only play into the hands of the anti's.

tomtexan wrote:To blame the gun would only play into the hands of the anti's.

Why you are right of course, it's the Glock owners who don't have a clue about the basics of firearm safety.

Edited to add the following:

I am only referring to those Glock Owners who shoot themselves with a gun that by design incorporates no manual safety or grip safety.

I can't provide statistics because there are none on NDs by gun. I could insert in here a couple sites to other fora making that point but what's the point. So to ask for statistical evidence is to ask for the impossible.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence about Glock leg though. (Which is defined as shooting yourself in the leg while either hostering or unholstering a gun, primarily while holstering a gun.) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/729088/posts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I could add a bunch of other cites but if you are interested do a google search using either "negligent discharge statistics" or "glock negligent discharge statistics"

Here is the most complete statistical review I have found on negligent discharges and it doesn't separate them by gun or even by the type of negligent discharge: http://sssfonline.org/wp-content/upload ... -Stats.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is another article indicating again that there are no good statistics on ND: http://www.gunfacts.info/blog/negligent ... -and-ccws/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Having said this, I have never said the glock's design are "inherently dangerous" as accused. I have said that glock's takedown process is not one I like and that the light trigger on glocks can lead to shooting oneself in the leg when holstering. (Still a negligent discharge btw). Given the anecdotal evidence, I don't really see how it can be disputed but obviously some of you glock fans don't want to listen to evidence.

For this reason, I don't own any Glocks now although I did at one time. If you don't agree with the evidence, that is up to you. Feel free to own them.

Can you shoot yourself in the leg while holstering with other guns? Of course, but there don't seem to be as many incidents. Again that may just be because Glocks are more plentiful or maybe not.

As several others have suggested and as I stated above, the real takeaway is that you need to follow the four rules religious whatever gun you use.

Charles.contigency: I really resent being called a troll. That is a personal attack on me which is completely unwarranted. Please stop such personal attacks.

Right2Carry wrote:

tomtexan wrote:To blame the gun would only play into the hands of the anti's.

Why you are right of course, it's the Glock owners who don't have a clue about the basics of firearm safety.

Ahem.

Right2Carry wrote:

tomtexan wrote:To blame the gun would only play into the hands of the anti's.

Why you are right of course, it's the Glock owners who don't have a clue about the basics of firearm safety.

So now you are attacking the vast majority of the LEOs in the country? That's low man.

Stroo,
I could be wrong, but I don't think the troll comment was directed at you.
Now to your post, people have NDs with guns - that is a fact. What I take exception to is the claim that those NDs happen at a higher rate per market share with a Glock than any other firearm.
Do we hear about it more with Glocks than over firearms? Maybe but let's look at a few factors to determine if that is evidence that my position is wrong.
1. The vast majority of the Glock leg "evidence" people use is years old. Almost all of these incidents are actually with people who are experienced gun owners who transitioned from 1911s and revolvers and brought with them their bad habits of placing their finger on the trigger before they were ready to fire the weapon. This direct violation of the rules established prior to Glock taking the market by storm can only be blamed on the shooter. To say otherwise would be the same as an overweight person blaming a fork.
2. Often people scream Glock Leg before the type of weapon used is even determined. The bias by the haters is so strong that they don't even wait to see if it was a Glock - if someone shot themselves in the leg it must have been a Glock. This was very evident with the recruiter who recently shot himself. Not a single story at the time revealed the type of weapon but people on forums were screaming Glock leg.
3. Market share and amount of service time. This is where people fail to see the big picture. I don't have the numbers, but I think most would agree that Glock owns the market share battle. So, not only are there more glocks in circulation than most other weapons, but because they are the weapon of choice for most police departments and many CC carriers, glocks put in many more hours of service than other types of firearms. When looking at market share and service time I would contend that the RATE at which a Glock is involved in a ND is actually substantially lower than other firearms.
4. Eye witnesses. How many actual NDs or injuries from NDs have you actually seen? We've heard from one person on this thread who has seen a number of them (former LEO I believe) and not one of them was from a Glock. How could that be if the vast majority of NDs are with glocks?

This is the basis for my position. I stand by it until someone can prove that my position is wrong. You claim that you can't produce statistical evidence because no one records that data. Perhaps the data is so random that no one has seen the need to do so. I strongly believe that if there was evidence that Glock leg was an actuality Bloombergs people would be all over it like white on rice in order to ban one of the most prolific handguns in the country. That is not the case.
Of course this whole discussion avoids the elephant in the room - why do so many police departments prohibit their officers from carrying handguns with thumb safeties and how does that translate to why the average citizen buying a firearm for self defense should avoid manual safeties also.

jmra wrote:Stroo,
I could be wrong, but I don't think the troll comment was directed at you.
Now to your post, people have NDs with guns - that is a fact. What I take exception to is the claim that those NDs happen at a higher rate per market share with a Glock than any other firearm.
Do we hear about it more with Glocks than over firearms? Maybe but let's look at a few factors to determine if that is evidence that my position is wrong.
1. The vast majority of the Glock leg "evidence" people use is years old. Almost all of these incidents are actually with people who are experienced gun owners who transitioned from 1911s and revolvers and brought with them their bad habits of placing their finger on the trigger before they were ready to fire the weapon. This direct violation of the rules established prior to Glock taking the market by storm can only be blamed on the shooter. To say otherwise would be the same as an overweight person blaming a fork.
2. Often people scream Glock Leg before the type of weapon used is even determined. The bias by the haters is so strong that they don't even wait to see if it was a Glock - if someone shot themselves in the leg it must have been a Glock. This was very evident with the recruiter who recently shot himself. Not a single story at the time revealed the type of weapon but people on forums were screaming Glock leg.
3. Market share and amount of service time. This is where people fail to see the big picture. I don't have the numbers, but I think most would agree that Glock owns the market share battle. So, not only are there more glocks in circulation than most other weapons, but because they are the weapon of choice for most police departments and many CC carriers, glocks put in many more hours of service than other types of firearms. When looking at market share and service time I would contend that the RATE at which a Glock is involved in a ND is actually substantially lower than other firearms.
4. Eye witnesses. How many actual NDs or injuries from NDs have you actually seen? We've heard from one person on this thread who has seen a number of them (former LEO I believe) and not one of them was from a Glock. How could that be if the vast majority of NDs are with glocks?

This is the basis for my position. I stand by it until someone can prove that my position is wrong. You claim that you can't produce statistical evidence because no one records that data. Perhaps the data is so random that no one has seen the need to do so. I strongly believe that if there was evidence that Glock leg was an actuality Bloombergs people would be all over it like white on rice in order to ban one of the most prolific handguns in the country. That is not the case.
Of course this whole discussion avoids the elephant in the room - why do so many police departments prohibit their officers from carrying handguns with thumb safeties and how does that translate to why the average citizen buying a firearm for self defense should avoid manual safeties also.

Doesn't matter who the comment was directed at, it is still a violation of forum rules.

JMRA:

Your four points are reasonable although I don't think they really explain Glock Leg. I continue to believe the light trigger with no manual safety is that reason. So we will have to agree to disagree.

I believe the reason there are no statistics is because NDs are actually pretty rare given the number of guns and gun owners in the US. If you read the NSSF study I cited, you will see that. When NDs are that rare, researchers may not see a need to collect statistics, statistics might be difficult to collect and may not actually have much validity even if collected.

BTW, while I believe the Glock design is less safe (not inherently dangerous though) with regard to cleaning and holstering, it is more safe than hammer guns used to be with regard to drop safety another category of NDs. However, modern hammer guns like the 1911 usually have drop safeties built into them making them safer than they use to be with regard to dropping NDs. So there probably is no longer much difference between striker fired and hammer guns with regard to drop safety.

I have seen a couple of NDs although in each case, we were at a range and at least one of the four rules was followed, "never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy". They both had the gun pointed downrange. Therefore no harm was done other than that the shooter was really shaken. Also neither involved holstering or dropping the gun. They both involved someone pulling the trigger when they really didn't intend to. So the gun design really had nothing to do with the ND. It was putting their fingers on the triggers that caused them. That's undoubtedly the primary cause of NDs anyway.

stroo wrote:So the gun design really had nothing to do with the ND. It was putting their fingers on the triggers that caused them. That's undoubtedly the primary cause of NDs anyway.

Right2Carry wrote:Doesn't matter who the comment was directed at, it is still a violation of forum rules.

If you feel that a post violates the forum rules there is a process for reporting it. Hit the small triangle next to the post and options will appear for reporting a post. Simply select the type of infraction and/or the rule violated and hit submit.

jmra wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:Doesn't matter who the comment was directed at, it is still a violation of forum rules.

If you feel that a post violates the forum rules there is a process for reporting it. Hit the small triangle next to the post and options will appear for reporting a post. Simply select the type of infraction and/or the rule violated and hit submit.

Why didn't you share this with the poster who had a complaint?

I don't own a glock, shot quite a few but they never felt comfortable to me, so I bought the next closest thing that was, a XDM. While it does have a grip safety in either holstering or just flat out ND downrange, my hand would be gripping the gun so the grip safety is a non issue, same could be said for any other gun in existence which has a grip safety.

Whenever I pick up a gun whether its a .22 pistol, my 1911, something striker fired, my ridiculously stiff DAO triggered LCP, a shotgun, or a rifle, the first thing I do is make sure my finger isn't in the trigger guard, second open the action to check if it is loaded or not. As long as I do those things it doesn't really matter if it has a safety or not because nothing is going to pull the trigger if my finger isn't on it. Any gun in the world that is being holstered you have to clear the holster of obstructions before putting the gun in.

Right2Carry wrote:

jmra wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:Doesn't matter who the comment was directed at, it is still a violation of forum rules.

If you feel that a post violates the forum rules there is a process for reporting it. Hit the small triangle next to the post and options will appear for reporting a post. Simply select the type of infraction and/or the rule violated and hit submit.

Why didn't you share this with the poster who had a complaint?

It's a public forum so I think I just did.

Medley86 wrote:I don't own a glock, shot quite a few but they never felt comfortable to me, so I bought the next closest thing that was, a XDM. While it does have a grip safety in either holstering or just flat out ND downrange, my hand would be gripping the gun so the grip safety is a non issue, same could be said for any other gun in existence which has a grip safety.

Whenever I pick up a gun whether its a .22 pistol, my 1911, something striker fired, my ridiculously stiff DAO triggered LCP, a shotgun, or a rifle, the first thing I do is make sure my finger isn't in the trigger guard, second open the action to check if it is loaded or not. As long as I do those things it doesn't really matter if it has a safety or not because nothing is going to pull the trigger if my finger isn't on it. Any gun in the world that is being holstered you have to clear the holster of obstructions before putting the gun in.

Well stated.

I see a few forum members in the below category. All humans are fallible.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/bas ... en-me.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Negligent Glock Discharge- "It Can't happen to me".
CPL holder here who owns several glocks and shoots about 1,000 rounds a month at the range. I, like most of you scoffed at the stories of negligent Glock Discharges believing I am too smart, and too careful for that to ever happen to me.
Well it just did today- and in my own home. As a part of self penance and to use this as a learning aid for others here is my story.