TexasCHLforum.com

Venus Pax wrote:Many variables are left out.
I would likely have my gun drawn at low-ready, but would likely not use it unless he headed my direction & I had no out.

+1

I think that this is what I would do. First, get what ever is in my hands out and draw both my cell phone and weapon. Call 911, but try to not be seen or heard doing so. If I can talk and not be heard by the BG then I will do that. If not, just dont hang up, as 911 will send a police officer to find out what is going on. Be a good witness, and if it all heads south, take the shot. The whole time, checking around the store for other BG's and checking the background for the shot, makeing sure it is clear. And wait for police to show up.

The only problem with all of this is first, I do not make a very discrete 911 call...I'm sure I will be found out...Darn it!

Second, As far as I am concerned in a situation where a suspect has already drawn a deadly weapon, and is using it in a manner condusive with an imminent threat of (deadly force) use on a victim (store clerk), and the store clerk has not, or cannot react to stop that imminent threat...

Like I've always said...The next thing that happens is elementary...

No one looks forward to it, and no one plans to do it...

There is no need to quibble over the senario, and lack of information to elaborate on the situation...We've all seen this type of problem before...

We probably need to be thankful that it is really not a situation that one of us have, or will likely have to face...

If the odds ever did get to where this happens more frequently...Then I almost bet it might not get talked about this much...

Having to defend yourself in the use of deadly force is a humbling experience...Whether it is you or someone else you are defending...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

Would you have hesitated and tried to call 9/11

Immediate action is the ONLY option

Looks like the clerk almost hit that woman and her baby as his muzzel was following and firing at the goon. But he was in a better position to determine that than I am looking through a camera lens at an angle.
Good point with that video Mr. Labe

Molon_labe wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

Would you have hesitated and tried to call 9/11

Immediate action is the ONLY option

But you have to be careful and know exactly what is happening and not be too quick to shoot. There can be misunderstandings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-7z9IdfZCc

Now that I think about it, this is a no brainer as mentioned by another member. One of the rules of owning a gun is "Never point a gun at anything you do not intend to destroy".

That being said, as a responsible gun owner, I can assume nothing more than the weapon is drawn to be used. Therefore I shoot.

I would much rather have the death of a bad guy on my conscience than the preventable death of a good guy because I hesitated. I could get over the fact I killed a bad guy, but I would never get over the fact that I failed to prevent the death of an innocent person. I am not looking to be a hero by any means, but I believe part of the responsibility of being a CHL holder is the willingness to protect others as well as myself.

Another way to look at it is put yourself in an officers shoes. Would an officer wait to be a witness, or act?

Keith B wrote:

Molon_labe wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

Would you have hesitated and tried to call 9/11

Immediate action is the ONLY option

But you have to be careful and know exactly what is happening and not be too quick to shoot. There can be misunderstandings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-7z9IdfZCc

There is no misunderstanding a person waiving a gun at a store clerk threatening to kill him.

With the scenario given, it seems pretty clear that it would be legal to shoot. The question is... should you?

I don't think the answer can be determined with the information given. In my opinion, you need to actually be in the situation in order to have a chance at determining if the robber is likely to shoot the clerk or is just using the gun for intimidation.

One school of thought is to shoot. It's a legal shoot, and you don't take the risk of not acting and having an innocent killed due to your inaction if the bad guy pulls the trigger.

The flip side of that has not been discussed. What if your taking the shot CAUSES the bad guy to shoot the clerk? How would you feel about that? It could be that the bad guy was only using the gun for intimidation... but when your shot hits him it only wounds him and he then shoots the place up. Maybe you hit him in the head but he twitches and pulls the trigger, killing the clerk? What if you MISS (stress can play hell with your accuracy, no matter how good you are at shooting silhouettes) and the bad guy starts shooting? Those are all possible negative outcomes that never seem to get discussed in these scenarios.

So... you really need to decide, in a split second, if taking the shot is more likely to improve or degrade the situation.

Sure, I would feel horrible if I waited and the bad guy shot the clerk. I would also feel horrible if I shot first, and then the bad guy shot the clerk.

It's a judgment call that will depend on how you read the particular situation.

I would certainly draw. After that... depends.

I'm reluctant to out over the interweb where it could come back to bite me. what would I do in these scenerios? I've made decisions in case something like this ever crops up, for now its mostly between me and my maker.

Some things worth considering. are the demeaner of the BG, is he jumpy, and irratic. making wild threats. Are ther people between me and the BG. Is there a clear shot. Am I sure I can make make it. Whats the consequence of a missed shot? Most of all, what what do i believe will happewn if i do nothing?

All of this to consider in about 1 millisecond.

THE ENGINEER wrote:Another way to look at it is put yourself in an officers shoes. Would an officer wait to be a witness, or act?

I think that is a dangerous way of looking at things. A CHL does not make you the equivalent of a LEO.

Doug.38PR wrote:Looks like the clerk almost hit that woman and her baby as his muzzel was following and firing at the goon. But he was in a better position to determine that than I am looking through a camera lens at an angle.
Good point with that video Mr. Labe

The shooter in question was very well-trained and if I recall correctly, was a CCW instuctor (in Ohio, I believe). He made a posting about it over on TFL when it happened a few years ago. He fired 3 rounds and all were good COM hits. He knew how to react with lethal force with the safety of everyone else in mind. The lady and her baby looked to be at nearly a 90-degree angle to his barrel, he controlled his shots and made accurate hits.

I would use my super speed and elevated athletic abilitys to flip over the racks and roll up behind him and give him the Vulcan neck pinch.

Seriously before visiting this site I would have pulled and shot the Bad Guy. But now I would have to agree with most of the others here. Unless he confronts me directly I'll just be a good witness.

However A diffrent set of events would transpire if my wife and son where waiting forme out in the car. Im not too sure how I would react to that.

Sangiovese wrote:

THE ENGINEER wrote:Another way to look at it is put yourself in an officers shoes. Would an officer wait to be a witness, or act?

I think that is a dangerous way of looking at things. A CHL does not make you the equivalent of a LEO.

I never eluded that having a CHL makes you the equivalent of an officer. What I meant was you should be OK from a legal aspect if you use a similar thought process, i.e. if an officer was justified in using deadly force in the given scenario, you should be as well. Sure we can dream up a million and one contradictions but let's be realistic.

Anyway, the BG accepts anything that may happen to him the minute he draws his weapon. At this point he is no longer a person, but a threat. Spending too much time worrying about the BG's well being will get someone hurt. Now, I'm not advocating just shooting the BG, but if the situating did not appear to be de-escalating within a very short period of time I would take action.

I don't think anyone here is holding fire because they feel that the BG is valuable. Most people are holding their fire b/c of an array of other factors.
Personally, I would hold fire for several reasons:
1) (And someone already said this), what if my shots actually cause the BG to fire, either by reflex (remember, he doesn't likely keep his finger out of the trigger guard like we do), or in retaliation.
2) I don't know that I trust my aim from across the store, especially if others are close by.
3) In most imagined angles, the BG is between me and the clerk. I don't want my bullet to go through the BG (or miss him entirely), then hit the clerk.
4) What if you were to hit the clerk or another customer? Would you be able to accept that? Are you ready for the civil suit that would likely result from your most admirable intention? LEOs consider this one, and they have police union backing. We have no one but our families, and those accounts (for most of us) run dry rather quickly.