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flintknapper wrote:Question for those responding that they "treat the gun as loaded" even after verifying that they are not.

Please define "treat the gun as loaded". What will you do/not do with it?

Be specific.


Thanks,

Flint.

+1

I don't treat a gun as loaded if I have verified it is not & have not put it down since I verified it, but even then I still avoid allowing the muzzle to cover things & people that I don't want to shoot. It's more an ingrained habit than anything else, but also partly a "Do unto others..." thing, since I don't care to have guns that have been verified empty (but not by me) pointed at me.

I don't know that it's a bad thing to spend so much time talking about the rules of firearms. I've been using & been around firearms for the better part of 40 years, and I've spent a great deal of that time drilling myself & others on these rules. I don't know that they've stopped any NDs or ADs, but if they haven't, at least the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction at the time.

I remember one young fellow in basic many years ago at the rifle range that pointed his weapon away from the targets for a second & accidentally shot off above the targets & off to one side. His initial response was "oopsie..." but I believe the D.I. had some special words for him abot 10 milliseconds after the shot that I recall curled some hair on innocent bystanders...

Mithras61 wrote:I don't treat a gun as loaded if I have verified it is not & have not put it down since I verified it, but even then I still avoid allowing the muzzle to cover things & people that I don't want to shoot. It's more an ingrained habit than anything else, but also partly a "Do unto others..." thing, since I don't care to have guns that have been verified empty (but not by me) pointed at me.

I don't know that it's a bad thing to spend so much time talking about the rules of firearms. I've been using & been around firearms for the better part of 40 years, and I've spent a great deal of that time drilling myself & others on these rules. I don't know that they've stopped any NDs or ADs, but if they haven't, at least the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction at the time.

I remember one young fellow in basic many years ago at the rifle range that pointed his weapon away from the targets for a second & accidentally shot off above the targets & off to one side. His initial response was "oopsie..." but I believe the D.I. had some special words for him abot 10 milliseconds after the shot that I recall curled some hair on innocent bystanders...

I'm with you here!

I am NOT unsafe with a firearm...nor am I suggesting that any of us become "lax" when handling them. I am concerned that some people take the meaning of these otherwise "good" rules out of context and thus make it impossible to carry/use/handle a firearm with any degree of confidence and tactical usefulness.

Specifically, when folks tell me that they are uncomfortable with the idea of a person carrying a loaded gun (or even not) in a horizontal shoulder rig.

The same person carrying a weapon horizontally in a purse or briefcase does not concern them! Huh?

Our recent poll indicates that at least 75% of the people here who carry, cover (muzzle points at) themselves when they do so...and probably cover others as well. If we accept the "over the top" version of "NEVER let your muzzle point at anything you don't wish to destroy" then how do we reconcile this?

Too, if I can't count on someone to get "rule 1" right, how I can expect them follow "rule 2". And if they can't get the first two rules right, what makes anyone think they are capable of remembering "rule 3"?

Rule #1 is simple! For the life of me....I can not see how anyone could botch this up. The best method is to "VISUALLY' check the chamber. If you fail to do this, then you have been irresponsible, period!

All of these quips like "people make mistakes" and "you can never be sure" are poppycock! Safe gun handling requires your FULL attention, if a person can not do this...then they are unfit to handle a firearm IMO.

I hope this does not come off as sounding elitist. I want everyone that desires a firearm for Self Protection/Sport/Hunting etc...to have one, but I don't want those same folks to be terrified of them. I also dislike how some folks want to "dumb down" gun safety by allowing for tiers of mistakes!

I say, learn to "get it right", pay attention, spend some time getting to know your firearm and become confident with it. Gun safety is not one of those things you "commit to muscle memory", it requires conscious thought every time you handle your weapon.

I have several weapons in my bedroom closet right now that I don't know the loaded/unloaded condition of. Some I keep loaded, others not.

If I were to pick up my daughter's 7mm-08, point it out the window toward the pasture and pull the trigger...there would be a huge BOOM!

I suppose....I could say "I forgot it was loaded", "Mistakes happen" or "Hey I'm human", and maybe someone would say "Man, glad you weren't hurt", "At least it wasn't pointed at someone". But, what I hope would happen... would be that ALL of you would point out the inexcusable/irresponsible action I took, and take me to task for it.

I may not have "remembered" if I left the rifle loaded or unloaded, BUT I can darn sure check. Exclamations of "I forgot", "I didn't remember", "I thought", etc....are not excuses I am willing accept! They don't equal "mistake".... they equal irresponsibility or the incapability to be safe!

Same thing, if a person is NEVER sure their firearm is unloaded.

You MUST be able to determine with confidence that a firearm is unloaded (and therefore safe). Otherwise, it needs to stay locked up in a safe, because you also won't be confident you're not pointing it at anything, confident you don't have your finger on the trigger, confident that objects beyond the target are not in danger.

All of this leads us to believe the same thing the Anti's do: Guns are scary and can not be handled safely.

I firmly believe this is what happens when we take the rules "too far" and out of context.

It's not a perfect world and we can't always choose the conditions that we have to work under. What happens when you've been awake for three days during a hurricane or other natural disaster. What about when you have the flu and a 103° fever?

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:It's not a perfect world and we can't always choose the conditions that we have to work under. What happens when you've been awake for three days during a hurricane or other natural disaster. What about when you have the flu and a 103° fever?

- Jim

Amen, it is not a perfect world.

In either of these situations, or any other that significantly compromises your ability to think clearly...I.E. (Severe fatigue, medical condition, drinking, mental status, physical impairment, etc..) it is best not to be handling a firearm (military excepted).

Would you drive your vehicle under these conditions? How about operate heavy/dangerous equipment. Would you want your doctor operating on you if he/she were under these conditions?

This is part of "proper" gun safety, "knowing when not to handle your firearm". Anything else is irresponsible and not a "mistake" IMO.

Just my .0002

flintknapper wrote:Would you drive your vehicle under these conditions? How about operate heavy/dangerous equipment. Would you want your doctor operating on you if he/she were under these conditions?

During the Hurricane Rita evacuation, I drove for about 20 hours straight, stopping only for gas, coffee, and bathroom breaks. Armed, BTW. Was I at the top of my game after midnight? Not at all. I thank God for sparing me from a critical situation where I had to react quickly.

The alternatives to making it to my destination were worse than proceding under those conditions.

Operating heavy equipment: How about in the aftermath of an earthquake?

If I needed surgery to survive the next hour, I would want a fatigued surgeon to go ahead. That happens all the time during wars and natural disasters.

We need deeply ingrained habits of safety that do not depend upon 100% mental alertness, and we need to use whatever rituals or drills will get us to that point.

It seems that this discussion goes back to the safety of shoulder holsters. I think any weapon in a holster that encloses the trigger is safe, including double-action revolvers. Police and bodyguards used that system during most of the 20th century, probably for millions of man-hours, with no significant problem. Pistols that have manual safeties are even less risky.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:

flintknapper wrote:Would you drive your vehicle under these conditions? How about operate heavy/dangerous equipment. Would you want your doctor operating on you if he/she were under these conditions?

During the Hurricane Rita evacuation, I drove for about 20 hours straight, stopping only for gas, coffee, and bathroom breaks. Armed, BTW. Was I at the top of my game after midnight? Not at all. I thank God for sparing me from a critical situation where I had to react quickly.

The alternatives to making it to my destination were worse than proceding under those conditions.

Operating heavy equipment: How about in the aftermath of an earthquake?

If I needed surgery to survive the next hour, I would want a fatigued surgeon to go ahead. That happens all the time during wars and natural disasters.

We need deeply ingrained habits of safety that do not depend upon 100% mental alertness, and we need to use whatever rituals or drills will get us to that point.

It seems that this discussion goes back to the safety of shoulder holsters. I think any weapon in a holster that encloses the trigger is safe, including double-action revolvers. Police and bodyguards used that system during most of the 20th century, probably for millions of man-hours, with no significant problem. Pistols that have manual safeties are even less risky.

Shoulder carry is something I have experience with, so it was a convenient "example" to use, but it was not the purpose for my post.

I will respectfully disagree about non-dependence on "mental alertness" as a means to prevent an unintentional discharge. I believe it has been proven over and over that the people most likely to have an UD are either those not familiar with the weapon or those who have been handling weapons for years.

The latter open themselves up to a mishap because they lose that "mental sharpness" and are satisfied with quickly going through the "motions, drills, habits".

And why can't "mental alertness" be a habit?

Jim, I am not condemning the "4 rules" or what they were originally purposed to do (which is create a mindset and good habits). I believe them to be good and valuable tools (or I wouldn't teach them myself).

But increasingly....we see new renditions that do not allow for: An empty gun being a safe gun or a properly working firearm that is not in a persons hand (and particularly in a holster) not being a danger to anyone.

The new meaning of the rules strips the gun handler of most tactical use and quite a bit of beneficial practice outside of the gun range.

If we literally can not EVER "let the muzzle point at anything we don't wish to destroy" then 75% of us are non-compliant every time we carry. So, I'll ask again: How do we reconcile this?

-[/quote]

flintknapper wrote:Question for those responding that they "treat the gun as loaded" even after verifying that they are not.

Please define "treat the gun as loaded". What will you do/not do with it?

Be specific.


Thanks,

Flint.

Ok, for me this means:

1) Not pointing the gun at anything I wouldn't miss if it had a bullet in it. (i.e. not pointing it at my wife or cats)
2) keeping my finger off the trigger.

I might consider violating these rules if the weapon was in a state where it couldn't fire (like it was taken down, or the slide was locked back)

If i'm showing my weapon to someone, or demonstrating something, for instance.

nitrogen wrote:

flintknapper wrote:Question for those responding that they "treat the gun as loaded" even after verifying that they are not.

Please define "treat the gun as loaded". What will you do/not do with it?

Be specific.


Thanks,

Flint.

Ok, for me this means:

1) Not pointing the gun at anything I wouldn't miss if it had a bullet in it. (i.e. not pointing it at my wife or cats)
2) keeping my finger off the trigger.

I might consider violating these rules if the weapon was in a state where it couldn't fire (like it was taken down, or the slide was locked back)

If i'm showing my weapon to someone, or demonstrating something, for instance.

Uh Oh......better change that before Mrs. Nitrogen sees this.

Nitrogen, I think a lot of people feel the way you do...and it is not a bad practice to do all we "reasonably" can to develop good/safe gun handling skills.

However, it is a "curious" thing to me, the different ideas people have concerning when a gun is actually unloaded or safe.

For you, it must be incapable of firing (from a mechanical standpoint).

This is interesting because it means: You must never walk in front of a showcase at a gun store, you couldn't comfortably attend a gun show, and "truth be known" you couldn't go a lot of places in public because there is a good chance that somewhere... there is a firearm that is covering you or me.

I don't know your mode of carry or if you voted in the poll that was taken, but its worth examining if your weapon points at yourself. If it does...and we are to be intellectually honest, then we must somehow make "uber safe ideas/rules" fit in with "real world" practices and necessities.

Its a fine line, I know.

Thank you for responding, no one else has yet.

Flint.

I feel obligated to share my own idea of what "treat as loaded" means to me...since Nitrogen was good enough to share his with us (Thank you Sir)!

I am confident I can clear any weapon that I am familiar with, store the ammo away from the firearm and feel perfectly safe around it. If I were NEVER able to trust myself to do this simple procedure....I would sell my guns today. I have managed to do this nearly 40 years with NO unintentional discharges or accidents. So, its doable folks!

I do NOT point a firearm at anyone, at any time, loaded or not (unless I have their permission)...for the following reason: Anytime you point a firearm at someone, you imply that you are willing to harm them. I don't NOT do it...because I am not aware of the loaded/unloaded status of the weapon.

On occasion, I have demonstrated certain disarm/retention techniques to persons using my own (checked by me, checked by them) UNLOADED pistol. Normally, I use training pistols for this....but once in a while the subject comes up when I don't have my props.

Generally, I have no fear/concerns at all about a "truly" unloaded weapon. And only slight concerns with loaded weapons UNTIL they get in someone's hand.

Let's here from some of the rest of you please.

Flint,

For decades, since age 10, I loaded a weapon only at the firing line (I don't hunt), and otherwise followed the four rules.

I was anxious about carrying a loaded weapon in a holster at first. I felt like I was juggling nitroglycerin. Eventually I came to understand what I wrote above: A weapon in a holster that covers the trigger is not going to go off, and is safe to carry.

The only was to reconcile the four rules with carrying in a holster is to say that the rules apply mainly to a weapon that is in your hand, in which case you can discharge it.

If it is necessary or useful to keep loaded weapons off one's person, they can be positioned with the muzzle in a safe direction, unless on a middle floor of a multi-story building.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:Flint,

For decades, since age 10, I loaded a weapon only at the firing line (I don't hunt), and otherwise followed the four rules.

I was anxious about carrying a loaded weapon in a holster at first. I felt like I was juggling nitroglycerin. Eventually I came to understand what I wrote above: A weapon in a holster that covers the trigger is not going to go off, and is safe to carry.

The only was to reconcile the four rules with carrying in a holster is to say that the rules apply mainly to a weapon that is in your hand, in which case you can discharge it.

If it is necessary or useful to keep loaded weapons off one's person, they can be positioned with the muzzle in a safe direction, unless on a middle floor of a multi-story building.

- Jim

Yup!