Open carry question (no this is not a petition...)

[GrillKing]

Except a person acting primarily as security, unless commissioned. I don't think keeping the shooters in line qualifies as sporting activity, although some may enjoy it and think so!!

I know, but I've to many gun ranges and don't remember ever seeing commissioned security. Have you and which one?

Never have, but have seen lots of employees likely acting as security, probably in violation of the law. Personally I have no problem with them carrying (and acting as security). If things get out of hand, I want THEM to handle it. I'll be protecting myself and my family and putting distance between us and problems.

They could argue that their primary responsibility is collecting range fees, collecting brass, filling the coke machine and launching clay pigeons and any perceived security duties are secondary to all that. Makes it legal, I think....

[txinvestigator]

But wouldn't PC 46.15 preclude open carry at the gun range except by the actual owner?

(Non - Applicability of PC46.02:
(2) is on the person's own premises or premises under
the person's controlunless the person is an employee or agent of
the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility
is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or
property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision
(5);

How does that limit it to the owner? If the employee can control access it is under his control.

For example, could the instructor order someone to leave the premises, and call the police to report a trespasser if the person refused?

If they are acting as security, in blue above, they are precluded from carry as I read it. Generally, I believe some may be acting as security.... but that is a probably hard to prove and may not be correct. I believe it likely is so in many cases.

That is a fair point. The Texas DPS Private Security Board rules them if they are acting in the capacity as a guard. A person working the counter at a gun range is not performing a service regulated by the PSB.

In fact, they would have to have guard duties as their primary job function. Counter people, instructors, etc, clearly do not.

[txinvestigator]

Except a person acting primarily as security, unless commissioned. I don't think keeping the shooters in line qualifies as sporting activity, although some may enjoy it and think so!!

I know, but I've to many gun ranges and don't remember ever seeing commissioned security. Have you and which one?

Never have, but have seen lots of employees likely acting as security, probably in violation of the law. Personally I have no problem with them carrying (and acting as security). If things get out of hand, I want THEM to handle it. I'll be protecting myself and my family and putting distance between us and problems.

They could argue that their primary responsibility is collecting range fees, collecting brass, filling the coke machine and launching clay pigeons and any perceived security duties are secondary to all that. Makes it legal, I think....

Nearly every employee of every company has a security responsibility to the company, that does not make them guards.

Texas law lists specific services that are required to be a guard. I am a Private Investigator, Commissioned Guard, Personal Protection Officer, (PPOs have to be commissioned also) Company Owner, Licensed manager (passed a licensing exam in Austin and have a certain level of experience) and a Classroom and Firearms Instructor.

The only way a gun range employee would fall under this is if his PRIMARY job were to act as a guard. The 1702 of the occupations code lists what "acting as a guard" is.

[KBCraig]

This has come up many times before. Gun shop employees who neither own nor control the premises, and who are not engaged in sporting activity, frequently open carry, and I've never heard of one being prosecuted. Could they be? Yes, by a strict reading of the law. For now, you just have to accept that there are big parts of Texas law (especially the older parts), where what is written isn't nearly as important as what is intended.

For instance, have you noticed that there is no exception to UCW for taking home a handgun you just bought (assuming you have no CHL)? Nor taking one to a gun show to trade? Nor even to touch a handgun in a gun shop?

All those things are technically UCW for non-CHLs, and would be UCW for CHLs while the handguns are not concealed (gun shop or show, for instance).

Sometimes you just have to accept that "the law doesn't mean that", and drive on.

[seamusTX]

For instance, have you noticed that there is no exception to UCW for taking home a handgun you just bought (assuming you have no CHL)? Nor taking one to a gun show to trade? Nor even to touch a handgun in a gun shop?

Of course. When I moved here and started reading the statutes, I was shocked. Even in Illinois, with the proper registration and kowtowing to the government, you can carry a handgun unloaded in a locked case.

However, there is case law in Texas. the Fitzgerald case in 1905 and Kellum in 1912 resulted in rulings that a citizen could carry a handgun home from the store or to a gunsmith (info courtesy Renegade).

- Jim

[Lucky45]

This has come up many times before. Gun shop employees who neither own nor control the premises, and who are not engaged in sporting activity, frequently open carry, and I've never heard of one being prosecuted. Could they be? Yes, by a strict reading of the law. For now, you just have to accept that there are big parts of Texas law (especially the older parts), where what is written isn't nearly as important as what is intended.

Would that land under "having verbal/written permission to possess a firearm on the owner's property." If so, then as long as you stay on the "premises", you should be legal to open carry. Didn't some folks here look at getting permission from the bosses to carry at work also? But most places, they probably would want you to conceal so as not to "alarm" the other co-workers. But a gun range is different, they are surrounded by guns.

[seamusTX]

Would that land under "having verbal/written permission to possess a firearm on the owner's property."

No. If an act is illegal, the property owner cannot make it legal by giving permission to do it, any more than he could allow employees to smoke dope.

Sometimes common sense has to prevail. If it's legal to shoot at a gun range (which it manifestly is, as ranges are recognized in LGC §250.001), it has be legal to possess a weapon openly there, even if you are not shooting at that moment.

- Jim

[GrillKing]

The only way a gun range employee would fall under this is if his PRIMARY job were to act as a guard. The 1702 of the occupations code lists what "acting as a guard" is.

Question answered for me. By the way, just got back from the range and they were carrying!!

[srothstein]

Ok well, if by that interpretation of the law: I'm at work in an office environment that does not have a no guns policy, I happen to be in a managerial position and have authority to fire people (control of the premises). Do I then have the legal right to open carry at work?

[strictly hypothetical of course]

No need to be hypothetical about it. If the President of Valero wanted to carry in the corporate headquarters, either openly or concealed, he could. If you are a manager in control of the premises, you can carry at work.

The real question is what constitutes "premises under the person's control". If you are a manager, you may not be in control of the premises. This would be especially true if you are a mid-level manager in a large corporation. You might be in control of the part of the premise where your work group is and be able to carry there while not carrying in other parts of the building. As another example, the financial services director in our agency is responsible for all work with the landlord, including renting space, locks, liaison when there is a building problem, and maintenance. He is clearly in control of the premises (IMHO) and could carry legally. My boss is the HR director and almost all hire and fire decisions go through her, but she has no control over the premises whatsoever outside of our office space. Her control over this is basically limited to assigning who gets which office/desk. I doubt she could legally carry. Both of these are without regard to the fact that it is a state office and our regulations would forbid it anyway, but may help you understand my logic.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Another aspect of the gun shop example is that any number of people can be in control of the premesis or have controlling authority over the premesis at least with respect to the general public.

To construe the law such as to only apply to some individual person who has ultimate control over the premesis like the CEO or something would be absurd. The person "in control" would change constantly as people entered or left, etc.

So I would say that any employee of a gun shop that has the authority to regulate access on the part of the public is "in control" and can carry openly if the owner of the shop allows it.

If there's no case law to the contrary, and people are doing it at gun stores all over TX without getting busted, I think my explanation gets the benefit of the doubt.

[txinvestigator]

ahhhh.........more common sense. life is good.