"No weapons" in employee manual = given notice???

[dac1842]

As the discipline officer for our company and a chl holder I can tell you that you mght not get arrested, but you will not have a job either. I have had to terminate two this year that wanted to test the waters. They lost.

[ctxpta]

An employer does NOT have to follow the wording and sign requirements of the 30.06 for its employees! Yes they are allowed to tell you in that form that you can not AS AN EMPLOYEE carry there. That does not apply to NON employee's!

[DoubleActionCHL]

I doesn't matter whether you sign it or not. Your employer has put you on notice. He can do it verbally, sign language or hire a sky writer. Doesn't matter. Employers have a great deal of latitude in this area.

Regarding the parking lot: If the parking area is owned, leased or otherwise under the control or care of your employer, it is off-limits as well.

The offense would be Criminal Trespass by a Concealed Handgun License Holder, and you could be arrested if you refused to leave or leave the gun at home. You would almost definitely get fired.

[Kalrog]

An employer does NOT have to follow the wording and sign requirements of the 30.06 for its employees! Yes they are allowed to tell you in that form that you can not AS AN EMPLOYEE carry there. That does not apply to NON employee's!

This statement is factually ambiguous (sp?). An employer does not have to use 30.06 language to let employees know that firearms are not allowed. However, if the notice is written and the language does NOT meet the 30.06 requirements, then there can be no arrest as no crime has been committed at all. They can still fire you. If the notice is verbal, then there are no specific wording requirements.

You may debate if it is worth it to carry where you know your employer doesn't want you to. But unless the notice is legally valid under 30.06, then a crime has not been committed and no arrest will stick.

I worked at Dell for 10 years. They had a very strict no weapons policy. I carried every day LEGALLY with my CHL. They sure could/would have fired me if they knew, but I could not have been arrested as I was never given legally valid 30.06 notice.

[Kalrog]

I doesn't matter whether you sign it or not. Your employer has put you on notice. He can do it verbally, sign language or hire a sky writer. Doesn't matter. Employers have a great deal of latitude in this area.

Regarding the parking lot: If the parking area is owned, leased or otherwise under the control or care of your employer, it is off-limits as well.

The offense would be Criminal Trespass by a Concealed Handgun License Holder, and you could be arrested if you refused to leave or leave the gun at home. You would almost definitely get fired.

Which post are you referring to with this, DA-CHL? Because I'm not sure you have a self contained thought here.

Point 1) Yes, a parking lot that is owned by a private company can 30.06 post it the same as they can the building. But they have to specify and place the signs at the entrance to the parking lot.

Point 2) If the wording is not 30.06 valid, then you cannot be charged for trespass simply because you have a firearm. You can (and probably will) still be fired. If the notice is verbal, the wording requirements aren't there. And if they find out that you are carrying and say simply "get out of here with that" then you have been given notice and can then be charged if you fail to leave.

[ctxpta]

Once again....an employer does NOT have to meet the requirements of the 30.06 rules and regulations. The CHL laws fall under the Government code chapter 411 subch. H. In this chapter it SPECIFICALLY states under 411.203 RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS....This sub chapter does not prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to prohibit persons who are licensed under this chapter from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

If you read the 30.06 section of the penal code it also specifically starts out with (a)(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H. Chapter 411, government code, on the property of another without effective consent....

If you read the above start of this post you do not have consent if the employer tells you in ANY form you can't have it. The employer has the rights in this case. You chose to work for them.

EVERY CHL instructor is told this in the training class they go to for their license. ONE MORE TIME...an EMPLOYER DOES not have to follow the same rules for the 30.06 posting to prevent its employers from carrying on its property.

If you want to read the entire parts of what was listed go to the Texas DPS website and to the concealed handgun section and click on the Texas concealed handgun laws and selected statutes. The entire list of the information is there for you to save and or print.

[sailor2000]

As the discipline officer for our company and a chl holder I can tell you that you mght not get arrested, but you will not have a job either. I have had to terminate two this year that wanted to test the waters. They lost.

And how did you know they had weapons??

[KBCraig]

ONE MORE TIME...an EMPLOYER DOES not have to follow the same rules for the 30.06 posting to prevent its employers from carrying on its property.

The original question asked if non-30.06 language constitutes "given notice". That's a standard for prosecution, which is entirely different from workplace discipline (including firing).

If an employer wants to pursue criminal trespass charges against an employee, then yes, they must give proper 30.06 notice. Absent that notice, a CHL has committed no crime; they can be fired, but not prosecuted.

No notice at all is needed to fire someone.

[Kalrog]

EVERY CHL instructor is told this in the training class they go to for their license.

Not mine. Not several of the instructors present here.

If an employer wants to pursue criminal trespass charges against an employee, then yes, they must give proper 30.06 notice. Absent that notice, a CHL has committed no crime; they can be fired, but not prosecuted.

No notice at all is needed to fire someone.

+1

[DoubleActionCHL]

Point 1) Yes, a parking lot that is owned by a private company can 30.06 post it the same as they can the building. But they have to specify and place the signs at the entrance to the parking lot.

Point 2) If the wording is not 30.06 valid, then you cannot be charged for trespass simply because you have a firearm. You can (and probably will) still be fired. If the notice is verbal, the wording requirements aren't there. And if they find out that you are carrying and say simply "get out of here with that" then you have been given notice and can then be charged if you fail to leave.

Based on MY CHL instructor years ago, and an explanation from the DPS legal counsel at this years Instructor Training, the interpretation of "premises" in this statute includes all property under the ownership, lease or care of one's employer.

To clarify what I posted earlier, the employer is within his rights to prohibit concealed carry on the business premises, and the method of notification is ambiguous. Criminal Trespass charges apply only if the employee was notified orally (in the absence of a 30.06 sign) by a person of apparent authority.

The business may place a 30.06 sign anywhere on the property, which will apply to employees and non-employees alike.

[Kalrog]

DA-CHL:

I agree with the second half - that a valid notice (30.06 or verbal) is required for criminal charges. I also agree that it can be posted anywhere on the property. But I think that it only applies to the property beyond that sign. And "premises" has been defined pretty clearly as building (not sidewalks and parking lots - see where you are able to carry on school property). So in order for the parking lot to be off limits, they have to post prior to the parking lot. If they post at the building entrance, then you are legal in the parking lot but not in the building.

[DoubleActionCHL]

DA-CHL:

I agree with the second half - that a valid notice (30.06 or verbal) is required for criminal charges. I also agree that it can be posted anywhere on the property. But I think that it only applies to the property beyond that sign. And "premises" has been defined pretty clearly as building (not sidewalks and parking lots - see where you are able to carry on school property). So in order for the parking lot to be off limits, they have to post prior to the parking lot. If they post at the building entrance, then you are legal in the parking lot but not in the building.

For the purposes of 30.06, and involving a posting, yes. Any employer, however, reserves the right to prohibit employees from carrying on their premises.

GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS. This subchapter does not
prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to
prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying
a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

Section 411 does not define premises. While I agree with you regarding the term in other applications, this particular section is vague. DPS and my original instructor said that, for the purposes of section 411.203, premises includes parking lots, sidewalks, etc.

Keep in mind that we're not talking about criminal trespass issues, we're referring to an employer's ability to prohibit carry and/or take action against an employee CHL holder. However, the 30.06 sign provides an obvious demarcation or boundary. The employee manual may or may not. If the employer says "You can't have a gun in your car in my parking lot," do you think he has the right to do so under 411.203? Furthermore, if he specifically tells you that you can't have a gun in your car in his parking lot, he has effectively met the requirements of 30.06, has he not?

[bluelineman]

The parking lot issue would not apply in my case. I would not be working on the premises of the business.

[kauboy]

Once again....an employer does NOT have to meet the requirements of the 30.06 rules and regulations. The CHL laws fall under the Government code chapter 411 subch. H. In this chapter it SPECIFICALLY states under 411.203 RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS....This sub chapter does not prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to prohibit persons who are licensed under this chapter from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

If you read the 30.06 section of the penal code it also specifically starts out with (a)(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H. Chapter 411, government code, on the property of another without effective consent....

If you read the above start of this post you do not have consent if the employer tells you in ANY form you can't have it. The employer has the rights in this case. You chose to work for them.

EVERY CHL instructor is told this in the training class they go to for their license. ONE MORE TIME...an EMPLOYER DOES not have to follow the same rules for the 30.06 posting to prevent its employers from carrying on its property.

If you want to read the entire parts of what was listed go to the Texas DPS website and to the concealed handgun section and click on the Texas concealed handgun laws and selected statutes. The entire list of the information is there for you to save and or print.

The section you quote under 411 does not enforce any law on the employee. The only section that does, is 30.06's "A license holder commits an offense if the license holder..."
That states a violation of law. The other simply says that a business does not HAVE TO post if they don't wish. They can post if they wish. It does not limit or prevent them from doing so. If they chose not to post PROPERLY, then no crime is committed by the CHL holder.
If they wish to charge you with 30.06, they MUST give PROPER notice.

[Lykoi]

i am under the belief, from several conversations with a relative in LE, that 30.06 does not apply to a parking lot...

premises is defined not by property lines, but by walls... the parking lot unless a garage would not be effected by this...

as far as carrying at work... even if not given "correct notice" most employers (unless CHL friendly) would probably fire you if they found you carrying at work... I've had more than one job that failed to define "weapons" and my current job says "weapons are prohibited, except where allowed by law"... now i take that as a free ride, but i'm not about to go ask my boss if my CHL makes it legal... I'm just going on the fact that concealed = concealed.

And no a written notice in the employee manual is not being "given notice" unless that written notice meets the language required by 30.06...