TexasCHLforum.com

gigag04 wrote: Cop repeats his instructions while pulling out tazer. She says same thing, and he lights her up.
She goes down, and he lights her up 4 more times, though she isn't even fighting back.

The posts on this have been interesting, a lot of good stuff on both sides. But the part above about him 'lighting her up 4 more times' hasn't been mentioned.
I don't claim to know anything about the tazer business, and those who have talked about getting her to comply have made good arguments. But 4 more means a total of 5. 4 while she was on the floor (or ground, whichever), not fighting back. Would this part be a bit on the excessive side?

Thanx,
TraCoun

Chris wrote:

KBCraig wrote:
Just for the record, I'm in a similar line of work. When I write someone up and he doesn't wish to comply, the stakes are a bit higher: by "losing", we could lose control of a unit, or an entire institution.

street work and jail assignments aren't even a close comparison. i've done both. the approach to problems are handled entirely different. if i had the peace of mind to know that person was not armed, i'd have no problem waiting a while. a lot of dead cops who made that mistake.

You think I have any such peace of mind?

LMFAO!

TraCoun wrote:

gigag04 wrote: Cop repeats his instructions while pulling out tazer. She says same thing, and he lights her up.
She goes down, and he lights her up 4 more times, though she isn't even fighting back.

The posts on this have been interesting, a lot of good stuff on both sides. But the part above about him 'lighting her up 4 more times' hasn't been mentioned.
I don't claim to know anything about the tazer business, and those who have talked about getting her to comply have made good arguments. But 4 more means a total of 5. 4 while she was on the floor (or ground, whichever), not fighting back. Would this part be a bit on the excessive side?

Thanx,
TraCoun

I was curious about the same thing - good post!

-nick

TraCoun wrote: I don't claim to know anything about the tazer business, and those who have talked about getting her to comply have made good arguments. But 4 more means a total of 5. 4 while she was on the floor (or ground, whichever), not fighting back. Would this part be a bit on the excessive side?

Not according to Chris. She broke the law and defied the cop. By golly, she's going to jail!

Kevin

Chris Chris Chris......I have a nice scar on my left leg from an armed inmate....I did not even have a confrontation with the guy. I think your statement was a bit unfair and completely bias.

I think my problem with this is I see a tazer as a nice option prior to pulling the handgun. If you can't pull the handgun, then you probably shouldn't be pulling the tazer either.

They are called less lethal instead of non lethal for a reason.

Kalrog wrote:I think my problem with this is I see a tazer as a nice option prior to pulling the handgun. If you can't pull the handgun, then you probably shouldn't be pulling the tazer either.

Exactly. I see a taser as the "shoot 'em in the leg" option. The likelihood of death is much lower than shooting COM, but there is a risk of serious injury or death.

I think the risk with the taser is that while it is use of force, it's force that requires no effort on the part of the user. It's stand-off force with almost no risk to the user. The risk of abuse is high. And most dangerous of all is the "it's just a taser" mentality that can lead to inappropriate use, or over-use.

Kevin

KBCraig wrote:

Kalrog wrote:I think the risk with the taser is that while it is use of force, it's force that requires no effort on the part of the user. It's stand-off force with almost no risk to the user. The risk of abuse is high. And most dangerous of all is the "it's just a taser" mentality that can lead to inappropriate use, or over-use.

Kevin

Kevin,
Really good point!
TraCoun

Kalrog wrote:I think my problem with this is I see a tazer as a nice option prior to pulling the handgun. If you can't pull the handgun, then you probably shouldn't be pulling the tazer either.

They are called less lethal instead of non lethal for a reason.

if you put them on a scale, the taser comes before OC spray. OC spray comes before putting your hands on someone. the taser has no residual effects and is considered less force than OC spray. if you need to pull a handgun, you should pull a handgun. a rookie cop in el paso made that mistake and he's got his own section on ODMP now.

most departments now are getting away from the 'use of force continuum' because attorneys are using that as a crutch. now, the best way to put it is an officer in the middle of a circle surrounded by various options, or tools, rather than progressing through various levels. the rationale behind this is officers don't have to keep trying things until they find something that works.

i wasn't there, so i have no idea if 4 more times was excessive. having been hit with the media spotlight on a few occassions, i can tell you they tend to put on a hefty slant. most police stories don't sell papers unless you juice them up a bit. in one instance, my butt was all over the news with really juicy headlines. they never reported the final outcome...go figure.

i've seen 3 officers wrestling a woman in her 60s. you should never make the mistake of taking anything for granted. the first time you get bitten or kicked in the groin, you won't make that mistake again.

Chris wrote:i've seen 3 officers wrestling a woman in her 60s. you should never make the mistake of taking anything for granted. the first time you get bitten or kicked in the groin, you won't make that mistake again.

Chris,
A lot of good thoughts and insights, thanks.

TraCoun

Not being there is fair enough for sure, but I watched the video, with audio. You can probably find it online somewhere, but lets just say for discussion, this is a completely peaceful (no physical violence or threatening words) but non-compliant (didn't comply - asked for husband) elderly woman.

I find it a stretch to light 'er up with a tazer. That is just my non-LEO opinion however.

Good posts and insights

-nick

gigag04 wrote:Not being there is fair enough for sure, but I watched the video, with audio. You can probably find it online somewhere, but lets just say for discussion, this is a completely peaceful (no physical violence or threatening words) but non-compliant (didn't comply - asked for husband) elderly woman.

I find it a stretch to light 'er up with a tazer. That is just my non-LEO opinion however.

Good posts and insights

-nick

cops are fired all the time for excessive force and poor judgment, but that decision isn't made until all the facts are known.

i was involved in an incident where an officer (supervisor) was under an IA investigation for excessive force. i told the IAD that i thought the amount of force was more than i would have used. i was there and i saw what happened. i even told this supervisor that i didn't think what he was doing was necessary. the guy was just being mouthy. it sucks fronting out a fellow co-worker, but when integrity is the most important part of your job, you tell the truth. the worst part for me was it was someone I arrested, but couldn't transport due to the car i was driving. the supervisor transported and booked him in so i could finish my report. in my honest opinion, it was too much force. i felt bad that the guy lost his job, but it's all about choices. he made a bad one.

Chris wrote:

gigag04 wrote:Not being there is fair enough for sure, but I watched the video, with audio. You can probably find it online somewhere, but lets just say for discussion, this is a completely peaceful (no physical violence or threatening words) but non-compliant (didn't comply - asked for husband) elderly woman.

I find it a stretch to light 'er up with a tazer. That is just my non-LEO opinion however.

Good posts and insights

-nick

cops are fired all the time for excessive force and poor judgment, but that decision isn't made until all the facts are known.

i was involved in an incident where an officer (supervisor) was under an IA investigation for excessive force. i told the IAD that i thought the amount of force was more than i would have used. i was there and i saw what happened. i even told this supervisor that i didn't think what he was doing was necessary. the guy was just being mouthy. it sucks fronting out a fellow co-worker, but when integrity is the most important part of your job, you tell the truth. the worst part for me was it was someone I arrested, but couldn't transport due to the car i was driving. the supervisor transported and booked him in so i could finish my report. in my honest opinion, it was too much force. i felt bad that the guy lost his job, but it's all about choices. he made a bad one.

Chris - I am glad to know that people still believe in the notion of integrity! I appreciate your efforts and your thoughts on thinking this situation through.

-nick