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DoubleActionCHL wrote:I just spoke with one of the executives of Hobby Center for the Performing Arts. The City of Houston owns title to the land only. Houston Music Hall Foundation built and owns the facility. They have an arrangement with the city whereby the land was 'donated', but the city retains ownership.

I wonder how that works with regards to PC 30.06.

I'm not a real estate attorney, but I don't think that's legally possible. Whoever owns the dirt owns the improvements.

Now the city could donate the use of the land and the Center can pay to build on the land they are using, but the city still owns the land and the improvements.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

DoubleActionCHL wrote:I just spoke with one of the executives of Hobby Center for the Performing Arts. The City of Houston owns title to the land only. Houston Music Hall Foundation built and owns the facility. They have an arrangement with the city whereby the land was 'donated', but the city retains ownership.

I wonder how that works with regards to PC 30.06.

I'm not a real estate attorney, but I don't think that's legally possible. Whoever owns the dirt owns the improvements.

Now the city could donate the use of the land and the Center can pay to build on the land they are using, but the city still owns the land and the improvements.

Chas.

Not sure what to tell you. My guess is they entered into some sort of a lease agreement with the city. It is not uncommon for municipalities to enter into 99 year, $1 per year type leases with non-profit organizations. If that's the case, it is possible for them to own the leasehold improvements. Either way, I'd be curious to know if there's a distinction between the ownership of the real estate and the buildings.

Let's say, for instance, you are building on city property and place one of your construction trailers on the site. Since you own the trailer, could you post a 30.06 even though the land on which it sits is city propery?

I got clarification on this. HMHF owns the facility. The land is owned by City of Houston and HMHF holds a 30 year lease.

DoubleActionCHL wrote:I got clarification on this. HMHF owns the facility. The land is owned by City of Houston and HMHF holds a 30 year lease.

Permanent improvements to real property belong to the landowner. You cannot own a building that sits on leased land. As you said however, you can own movable personal property such as a construction trailer, but the Hobby Center is one big building!

Chas.

Russell wrote:So what does that mean for CHL holders Mr. Cotton? Is the 30.06 sign enforceable or not?

Owned by a governmental agency = not enforceable. But nobody has volunteered to be the one to win this in court. Any chance of an AG opinion to put this on the right path?

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

DoubleActionCHL wrote:I got clarification on this. HMHF owns the facility. The land is owned by City of Houston and HMHF holds a 30 year lease.

Permanent improvements to real property belong to the landowner. You cannot own a building that sits on leased land. As you said however, you can own movable personal property such as a construction trailer, but the Hobby Center is one big building!

Chas.

Actually, Hobby Center is two large buildings and a parking garage. I don't know what you can or cannot do regarding real property. I'm simply telling you what one of the directors told me.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

DoubleActionCHL wrote:I got clarification on this. HMHF owns the facility. The land is owned by City of Houston and HMHF holds a 30 year lease.

Permanent improvements to real property belong to the landowner. You cannot own a building that sits on leased land. As you said however, you can own movable personal property such as a construction trailer, but the Hobby Center is one big building!

Chas.

So you're saying you cannot 'own' a building or portion of a building on property that you do not also own?

DoubleActionCHL wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

DoubleActionCHL wrote:I got clarification on this. HMHF owns the facility. The land is owned by City of Houston and HMHF holds a 30 year lease.

Permanent improvements to real property belong to the landowner. You cannot own a building that sits on leased land. As you said however, you can own movable personal property such as a construction trailer, but the Hobby Center is one big building!

Chas.

So you're saying you cannot 'own' a building or portion of a building on property that you do not also own?

That's a good point. Condos are set up that way.

NcongruNt wrote:
That's a good point. Condos are set up that way.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Anygunanywhere

NcongruNt wrote:

DoubleActionCHL wrote:So you're saying you cannot 'own' a building or portion of a building on property that you do not also own?

That's a good point. Condos are set up that way.

In a condominium, each unit owner owns an undivided interest in the underlying land and common areas.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:

NcongruNt wrote:

DoubleActionCHL wrote:So you're saying you cannot 'own' a building or portion of a building on property that you do not also own?

That's a good point. Condos are set up that way.

In a condominium, each unit owner owns an undivided interest in the underlying land and common areas.

- Jim

Not to be a stickler, but what about the 2nd or 3rd floor condo?

I'm pretty sure each unit owner has an ownership interest in the land, regardless of the floor that their unit is on.

- Jim

You own your unit fee simple (i.e. by yourself) and you are joint tenants in common (co-owners) in the land and other areas. At least this is my understanding of the law. I know we have other attorneys here, so if any of you guys are real estate lawyers, jump in!

However condos and townhomes are set up, you cannot own a building you build on leased land.

As for applicability of TPC §30.06, I believe the law is clear:

TPC 30.06 wrote: (e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

I know some hold an opposite opinion, so I would not recommend crossing a 30.06 sign and arguing "Cotton said it was okay."

Chas.