TexasCHLforum.com

Remember folks, the law TABC officers deal with on a daily basis includes the parking lot (actually, all of the real estate) as part of the "premises." It is only when dealing with CHLs that it does not. This is an easy distinction for them to miss.

As I have mentioned before, people who take a 10 hr or 4 hr CHL course know more about the various laws that impact CHLs than any LEO, unless he/she also has a CHL. People who care enough about the issue to join and/or read TexasCHLforum know far more about laws impacting CHLs than anyone in the State, including LEOs! LEOs have to know the Texas Penal Code, Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, county and city ordnances, traffic laws, and a myriad of other codes and statutes. No one, not even we lawyers, can possibly know all these in as much detail as TexasCHLforum members know the CHL laws. So I think it's understandable when a LEO misses a subtle point like we're dealing with in this thread.

That said, not knowing the limited definition of "premises" as it applies to a CHL is one thing, but it doesn't justify being rude or unprofessional.

Chas.

Forum Rules wrote:9. Blatant, global, or rampant law enforcement bashing is prohibited. Discussions of specific identifiable events presented factually are fine.

Keep the discussion on this specific incident. Global bashing of LEOs or agencies violates Forum Rules. Being critical of a specific event and/or people is a legitimate topic of discussion. "I hate 'um all" posts or threads are not.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:LEOs have to know the Texas Penal Code, Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, county and city ordnances, traffic laws, and a myriad of other codes and statutes.
Chas.

Oh boy do they!

Jason

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Molon_labe wrote: And unfortunately the law of .08 is null/void when you are carrying concealed, even 1 beer can be and infraction if you choose to carry, if you drink..leave the piece at home!

Can you cite any references for this, (highlighted part of statement above) other than the occassional addled-brained CHL instructor?

Well fine..it says "intoxicated" but I will bet you if you get nailed...it doesn't matter if you blow a .01 or whatever...the anti's will throw a fit and the news outlets will plaster "a Drunk CHL'er"

jbirds1210 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:LEOs have to know the Texas Penal Code, Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, county and city ordnances, traffic laws, and a myriad of other codes and statutes.
Chas.

Oh boy do they!

Jason

Are they putting you through the wringer Jason?

jbirds1210 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:LEOs have to know the Texas Penal Code, Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, county and city ordnances, traffic laws, and a myriad of other codes and statutes.
Chas.

Oh boy do they!

Jason

Are you there yet, Grasshopper!
Chas.

Molon_labe wrote:Well fine..it says "intoxicated" but I will bet you if you get nailed...it doesn't matter if you blow a .01 or whatever...the anti's will throw a fit and the news outlets will plaster "a Drunk CHL'er"

It happened in Texas City recently. There was one small article in the local newspaper. The last I knew, the guy was charged with public intoxication, not with carrying while intoxicated.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 26&t=13025

- Jim

1) The guy in Texas City had taken prescription drugs. That's not the same thing as having 1 drink.

2) We don't know all of the facts, specifically, whether the guy was acting or speaking in such a way as to create a reasonable belief that he met the legal standard for PI.

3) We also do not know the final disposition of the case. Was the guy convicted? Has the DA dropped the charges?

I still go back to what DPS puts on their web site. It's legal to drink while carrying. It's not legal to carry while intoxicated.

So I will drink while carrying if I want to. But I will make sure not to get intoxicated. And I will not worry about being railroaded.

Molon_labe wrote: Well fine..it says "intoxicated" but I will bet you if you get nailed...it doesn't matter if you blow a .01 or whatever...the anti's will throw a fit and the news outlets will plaster "a Drunk CHL'er"

If I "get nailed" for what? What is it that I am going to do that will cause me to, as you put it, "get nailed"?

Drinkin' and packin'..................



This is gettin' almost as bad as open carry.

Anygun

frankie_the_yankee wrote:1) The guy in Texas City had taken prescription drugs. That's not the same thing as having 1 drink.

I'm not saying that it is. My point was that the guy drew enough attention to himself to have the police called, the police had probable cause to arrest him, and he received the least serious charge possible under the circumstances as reported.

The incident did not get escalated to the Houston newspapers or TV stations. The local paper did not report on it further. They are unlikely to do so.

I agree with you that this "not one drop" business is irrational. If that's what someone chooses, fine. It's a personal choice, just like the choice of whether or not to carry in any situation.

- Jim

anygunanywhere wrote:Drinkin' and packin'..................



This is gettin' almost as bad as open carry.

Anygun

I agree. Lot's of misinformation getting tossed around. Most of the speculation I am reading does not seem at all credible to me and/or pertains to what I would call, "getting drunk". Like the following comment.

Sitting in the bar slugging them down while you wait for a table is another matter.

What does that have to do with having ONE BEER?

Nothing. That's what.

So if one wants to speculate that having one beer puts one in line for a possible PI or carrying while intoxicated rap, what I say is, "Anyone can speculate on anything. You want to persuade me? Show me."

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

jbirds1210 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:LEOs have to know the Texas Penal Code, Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, county and city ordnances, traffic laws, and a myriad of other codes and statutes.
Chas.

Oh boy do they!

Jason

Are you there yet, Grasshopper!
Chas.

I am having a blast. If I could take my girls with me.....I could listen to lecture 12 hours a day. I seriously absolutely love it and wish it was something I had done years ago. I find myself sitting in a room with a bunch of people I fear are not having nearly as much fun as I am!

I really can see how sorting through all of the codes can get VERY confusing.......fast. As if they are not confusing enough, they are for the most part open to discretion

anygunanywhere wrote:Drinkin' and packin'..................



This is gettin' almost as bad as open carry.

Anygun

Well, I guess it really is time for me to weigh in on this. I have had many favorable dealings with TABC agents and I look forward to more in the future. Of course, being their trainer, I tend to get a different view of them than some of you do.

Now, as for some of the specific questions posted, I will agree with Charles up to a point. The parking lot is considered to be part of the licensed premises under the Alcoholic Beverage Code unless it is marked off on the license application. The part I have a slight disagreement with Charles on is whether or not the officer should know about the lot in relation to weapons. My disagreement is that I know I specifically put into the legal updates class this year that the guns in cars was legal in the parking lot, even if it was part of the licensed premise. Charles was right until that point in September when they sat through that class. They may not have been taught in the past about how the lot is not premises for a CHL, as it is easy for the previous trainers to miss.

And since the lot is part of the licensed premise, you can legally take your drink into the lot. The bar owner may not allow this, but the officers will not stop you (or should not). Bar owners can make any rules they want, and they usually make them stricter than the law to cover themselves from accidental violations.

Charles is also right that most of you know more about CHL and weapons laws than the average officer does. It is not emphasized in the academy or most classes on laws. One reason it is not emphasized is that it is not a common crime area for the officers to deal with. Of course, we do not expect the officers to know all of the laws by heart either. What I have always trained them to do is know where to find the wording of the law and how to read it. Then I recommend that they keep the issued copy of the law book in their brief case in the car in case there is any question. It is not an embarrassment to say "I don't know and we can check" and pull out the book. I have done it many times.

Now, if the officer was rude, abusive, or just plain wrong, you have the right to file a complaint on him. You can do this in any of several ways. If you just want to discuss it with his supervisor to educate them about the law, you can always call the local office. WARNING: Some of the supervisors may be as much as 150 miles away from the local office in small rural towns. The local office or the main office can tell you who the immediate supervisor is and how to contact him. In the larger cities, the sergeant will be in the same office. I believe, and I may be wrong, in this case that Abilene has the sergeant there while the lieutenant is in Amarillo. I do know that the Captain has his office for that area in Lubbock.

Your other option is the more formal complaint, which would be more appropriate for being rude or abusive than just having a mistake in knowledge. In this case, you should call our Office of Professional Responsibility to file the complaint. This is what we call our Internal Affairs division. Full instructions, including address, telephone, and e-mail are available on our main web page by following the link marked "Complaint on TABC personnel" or at this link:http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/opr.htm.

I strongly recommend that you file a complaint anytime you are wronged by any law enforcement personnel in Texas (well, actually anywhere but I worry more about Texas). The only way we can punish someone for improper behavior is to know what they did. If it is just you and him out there, we won't know until you call.