How old is your ammunition?

[NcongruNt]

I've fired over a thousand rounds of decades-old 7.62x54R ammo through my rifles. I've only had 3 rounds fail to fire, and they were all from a single box I purchased when I first started shooting. Although it was made in 1958, I don't think the age was what caused it to fail - it was from East Germany. Most of the ammo I fire through these rifles is old surplus, as pictured below:



The first is Hungarian steel-core heavy ball made in 1975. I've fired around 1200 rounds of this stuff with no failures whatsoever.
Second is steel-core light ball made in Czechoslovakia in 1966. I've fired around 400 rounds of this stuff with no failures whatsoever.
Third is the above-mentioned East German ammo, made in 1958. I've put 20 rounds of the stuff through my rifles and had 3 of them fail to fire (as you can see).

My point is that age isn't really much of a factor, it's quality of manufacture.

[lawrnk]

The most reliable ammo I have shot recently was made in the 70's. Age is not really an issue when stored properly

[bpet]

Well, I experienced my first failure to fire based on what I believe to be "old ammo". Happened Friday evening at Bullet Trap in Plano. I was shooting my High Standard Victor just for a change of pace, using some 22LR that I bought in the late 60s or early 70s. Box was marked $.88. Had one round fail to fire out of 100. Examination revealed heavy firing pin strike on rim but no ignition. I was surprised since I've never had this happen before.

Considering the age of the ammunition (30-35 years), the price per round (.013), and the fact that it is unlikely I would ever use a .22 as a self defense round, I can live with the results. Still haven't had it happen with a center fire round but they just don't stay around that long anymore.

[jimlongley]

When I was in the Navy in the late 60s, we were still shooting up WWII ammo, .45ACP, .30 Carbine, .30-06 (Garand, BAR, and machine gun) and five inch, and very few misfires.

One misfire was in a five inch gun, which was eventually traced to a failure in the electric firing mechanism. Following proper procedures, another gunner's mate and myself cleared the powder case out of the gun and as I got ready to throw it over the side the gunnery officer stuck his head out of cover and told me to hold on to that powder case so he could inspect it. I told him what he could do with his powder case and threw it as hard as I could, and then I hit the deck.

He scrambled out and stood there berating me, telling me how long it was going to be before I saw daylight after he saw me court martialed, and then the powder case blew.

As a fine spray of seawater descended around us, he kind of tottered for a few seconds, apologized to me, and turned around and walked away muttering to himself.

I never did tell him that the reason the powder case blew was the gunner standing amidships with a Garand loaded with incindiaries.

The only ammo I have ever had a problem with was improperly stored surplus stuff, and I have shot a lot of surplus stuff.
BTW, cleaning a Garand after it has had incindiary ammo fired through it is a real chore.

[Vic303]

I dunno....but some of it was manufactured Between the Wars... circa 1928.

[57Coastie]

Well done, Jim. You and your buddy did exactly the right thing, and your gunnery officer was an idiot who was obviously in the wrong job, if he belonged in the Navy in any job other than Exchange Officer, if that. Except for your prompt action he would have endangered himself, the whole guncrew and their shipmates, if not the ship itself. He is the one who should have gone before a court-martial.

As you so obviously knew, that 5" misfire had to be considered first a potential cookoff and then a potential hangfire until it was deepsixed, and you were in a very dangerous situation until you did what you did. It was more than that -- it was a courageous thing you did. This fundamental precaution was not always impressed upon gun crews adequately, and, in your case, upon ship's officers.

I had a similar incident on a ship in which I served, firing ammo of the same vintage as yours, with a little different slant. After a misfire with a 5 in. 38, the round was immediately cleared from a very hot barrel before enough time had passed to cool things off. At that point it was quickly, if not urgently, deepsixed by a member of the guncrew on his own initiative. Until then we had the chance of either a cookoff with an open breech or a hangfire, each of which would have had similar terrible consequences. The crewman who ejected the round too soon received a little retraining, and the crewman who put his personal safety on the line by single-handedly deepsixing that round received a commendation.

To give both our stories a little more relevance here on this forum, that is, that these guys are not just old sailors exchanging sea stories, my experience has been that there are too many shooters out there who do not realize that the same basic procedure should be followed in the case of small arms misfires as with the big guns at sea. For example, I have seen much more training in clearing a jam than in clearing a misfire. The unplanned "bang" may be smaller at the pistol range, but it can be equally dangerous to a smaller group of people. And I don't want to be in that group.

Again, well done, Jim.

Jim

[NcongruNt]

Well, I experienced my first failure to fire based on what I believe to be "old ammo". Happened Friday evening at Bullet Trap in Plano. I was shooting my High Standard Victor just for a change of pace, using some 22LR that I bought in the late 60s or early 70s. Box was marked $.88. Had one round fail to fire out of 100. Examination revealed heavy firing pin strike on rim but no ignition. I was surprised since I've never had this happen before.

Considering the age of the ammunition (30-35 years), the price per round (.013), and the fact that it is unlikely I would ever use a .22 as a self defense round, I can live with the results. Still haven't had it happen with a center fire round but they just don't stay around that long anymore.

That's better than what I get with NEW .22LR ammo! If I buy the cheap Remington stuff, it's more like 1 out of 20. Federal Mini Mags do much better in my Marlin Model 60, and I get more like 1out of 50.

[jimlongley]

Again, well done, Jim.

Jim

Thanks Jim, we followed standard misfire/hangfire procedures, cleared the mount and handling room, as well as the starboard side, and waited the requisite intervals between percussion attempts (a waste of time with case electric primers) and all that. When the other gunner opened the breech, I caught the round, and checked the primer right then, then he stood in the door while I went out the shell chute after I handed him the case, and then he handed it to me. I didn't feel particularly heroic, it was one of those things where "the gunner's mates" were the ones designated to do the job, and there were only two of us in the mount, so we were volunteered.

Actually the regs required the case to be weighted to sink, but 5th Fleet had determined that sport divers could be endangered if the shells were sunk in too shallow water, in the Med, and there was a lot of empirical evidence that there wasn't any really good way to weight a round object fast while being very nervous. Fifth Fleet had issued a directive that rounds were to be destroyed by gunfire after being ejected over the side.

That officer was indeed a cowboy, all he needed to do was have confidence that WE were competent in determining that the firing pin had made contact. There had been another misfire shortly before that, same gun, and it had not been thoroughly trouble shot yet. I determined that I had an intermittent firing pin over the next couple of days, the mount was mine, and replaced it.

For guys who may not know, the firing pin of a 5 inch 38 calibers rifle is somewhat similar to a spark plug, it's essentially a big electrode through the breechblock that ignites the primer. The one on that gun had broken down and only worked occasionally. My Ham Radio experience and telephone background helped me whip up a little test rig in the gun shack to see whether the problem was positional or whatever.

The powder case in question is large enough to lob a 60 pound projectile over five miles, so having one sitting in your hands knowing it could cook off at any second is a little nerve wracking.

I have seen misfires at the firing line, that turned out to be hangfires, and that can be a major surprise. We were firing at 600 yards at the Forbes rifle range in upstate NY and one of the shooters had almost reached his time limit on a shot. When the round failed to fire, he immediately ejected it, and it popped off just as it hit the ground, reinforcing the range's rules about how to clear a misfire. This, BTW, was a handload and the thought was that the primer had been contaminated during the loading process resulting in a very slow burn. If the shooter had held his position and waited, and declared the misfire for an alibi, it probably would have just gone downrange without scaring everyone at the firing line.

BTW, also have a semi-funny story about the previous misfire of my five inch gun.

[57Coastie]

Jim Longley says, "BTW, also have a semi-funny story about the previous misfire of my five inch gun."

Would love to hear it, Jim. Feel free to go by PM or email if you think others might be bored. But they shouldn't be bored. I would suggest that they are learning about the way guns are handled by the big boys.

BTW, you are a bit too modest. Very few members of the U. S. military are compelled by their duty, by orders from a higher authority, to place themselves at personal risk to save the lives of others. In general, of course, as a group they all are, but not as a specific duty of a particular person who is a member of that group -- being required to do as is required, for example, of a Secret Service agent in the presidential security detail. You took on that duty when you earned your rating as a Gunners Mate, and that was the point where the courage began. It was announced yesterday, for example, that a Navy Seal was to be posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for falling on a live grenade in the Mideast, thereby giving his life to save those of his buddies. He did not have a duty different from that of his buddies to do that. He just did it. You, on the other hand, had a duty to do what you did, and who knows, that round may have gone off on its own seconds later if your shipmate had not hit it first with an incendiary round. You well know that this has happened, or the procedures you followed would never have been prescribed.

I know whereof I speak, Jim. I've been there. My 5" 38, and possibly its ammo as well, were undoubtedly even older than yours. The enclosed single mount was mounted in about 1939, the one you would often find on DEs during WWII. The gun was fired by percussion if my ancient memory serves me right -- no fancy electrics.

I apologize if I embarrass you, but I salute you and your service to your country and your shipmates, sir.

Jim

[Keith B]

Jim Longley says, "BTW, also have a semi-funny story about the previous misfire of my five inch gun."

Would love to hear it, Jim. Feel free to go by PM or email if you think others might be bored. But they shouldn't be bored. I would suggest that they are learning about the way guns are handled by the big boys.

Sounds like a big bore-ing story to me (5 inch gun, big bore, get it??!!) I crack myself up sometimes.

I actually wouldn't mind hearing that one either.

As to keep from hijacking this post, when I was shooting bowling pin matches back in the late 70's and early 80's, one of the team members got us a big supply ( about 10,000 rounds) of surplus .45 ball ammo that was I think from the era just after WW2. I don't remember ever having a FTF on any of it by any of the team members.

[jimlongley]

I put a couple of stories in "OFF TOPIC" for all y'all's perusal.

[jimlongley]

You took on that duty when you earned your rating as a Gunners Mate, and that was the point where the courage began. It was announced yesterday, for example, that a Navy Seal was to be posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for falling on a live grenade in the Mideast, thereby giving his life to save those of his buddies. He did not have a duty different from that of his buddies to do that. He just did it. You, on the other hand, had a duty to do what you did, and who knows, that round may have gone off on its own seconds later if your shipmate had not hit it first with an incendiary round. You well know that this has happened, or the procedures you followed would never have been prescribed.

I know whereof I speak, Jim. I've been there. My 5" 38, and possibly its ammo as well, were undoubtedly even older than yours. The enclosed single mount was mounted in about 1939, the one you would often find on DEs during WWII. The gun was fired by percussion if my ancient memory serves me right -- no fancy electrics.

I apologize if I embarrass you, but I salute you and your service to your country and your shipmates, sir.

Jim

And thank you again for your kind comments and your service too sir.

We had the option, if it was necessary, to change to percussion primers, we had them in stock in a magazine, but only did so once for training. I still have the primer wrench somewhere in my tool collection, it just accidently wandered off the ship in my things when I got out - it's a neat tool to show someone who knows a lot about tools as a challenge to identify.

Back to old ammo - I firmly believe that the Iowa explosion was caused, in part, by the age of the ammo. Smokeless powder, when stored improperly, can exude part of its component in a liquid form, which may crystallize. This exudate is Nitro Glycerin! The "Powder bags" involved do not really have powder in them per se, they have relatively huge grains of smokeless propellant which may be stacked neatly in the bag or random packed. There are specific storage conditions that must be observed to keep the powder from degrading and exuding.

I believe that the ammo that had been off loaded from the Iowa during its yard period, which was placed back on the ship afterward, had been improperly stored where temperatures were allowed to exceed those for safe storage.

The official inquiry points to static electricity and "over ramming" as the primary causes, but I believe that neither would have had much of an effect if the ammo had been stored properly.

Of course acknowledging that would have meant that blame for the incident and resulting deaths accrued at many different levels.