Is this concealed

[srothstein]

flb_78

Please note the correct wording of the law as it was posted. It does not say the weapon must be concealed from a reasonable person. It says the weapon cannot be in plain view.

For purposes of this law, I recommend everyone check what the Supreme Court says about plain view. The basic rule for the plain view exception to search warrants is if the item can be seen by a police officer who is where he has a legal right to be, and he can immediately recognize the nature of the item. Please note that this is not the reasonable man standard, but specifically what a cop would consider plain view. His opinion is even more important than the jury's at first (helps to avoid the jury ever considering the issue).

So, if a cop could see the weapon from any point where he could legally be (outside the vehicle or opening the door for some legal reason), and recognize that it is a pistol, then it is not concealed and is in plain view.

I agree that a paper towel or rag draped over the grip in a loose fit would be all the concealment you would need to finish it where that is at. A loose fit would not show the outline (printing) and would make it not immediately recognizable.

[Liberty]

I keep a rag draped over the gun. Hides it pretty well and serves double duty to wipe down foggy windows or sop up spilled coffee.
the rag also behaves as camouflage when I move it to th the holster.

[WildBill]

So, if a cop could see the weapon from any point where he could legally be (outside the vehicle or opening the door for some legal reason), and recognize that it is a pistol, then it is not concealed and is in plain view.

So if you were to open the door to get out of the truck on your own volition and he saw the handgun in the door, he could arrest you for failure to conceal?

[casingpoint]

If an officer walks up to your vehicle during a stop, he is not considered a "reasonable" person

LOL, that's for sure.

[flb_78]

I'm going by what my instructor taught me and considering that he helped write the CHL laws, I'll trust his teachings.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... chlaws.htm

(3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person.

No reasonable person has a right to be looking into your vehicle below the windows.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'm going by what my instructor taught me and considering that he helped write the CHL laws, I'll trust his teachings.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... chlaws.htm

(3) "Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person.

No reasonable person has a right to be looking into your vehicle below the windows.

Says who?

Any statute or case law to support this?

[flb_78]

Says who?

Says my instructor who also helped write the CHL laws.

Any statute or case law to support this?

Not that I am aware of, but to be honest, I didn't look.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Says who?

Says my instructor who also helped write the CHL laws.

Any statute or case law to support this?

Not that I am aware of, but to be honest, I didn't look.

In the absence of statute or case law, I would not put much (actually, any) faith in the idea that anything below the level of the window is considered concealed, no matter who told me different.

I think Steve is quite correct where he points out that something is considered to be in "plain view" if it can be seen and identified from any place that the officer (or other person) has a right to be. An officer certainly has the right to stand next to your stopped vehicle. And if he can look through a window and see the gun, and identify it as a gun, then it is in plain view.

Plenty of people have been busted, and convicted, because a cop looked through a window and spotted a bag of dope on the seat or other place below the level of the window.

And FWIW, it is not unknown for CHL instructors to have a poor understanding of the law. This is unfortunate, but true. The guy who conducted my renewal class in April-07 had some very eccentric ideas about the law that he foisted upon the class as fact. Mostly I just ignored him because I just wanted to get the certificate and get out of there. But one "lesson" was so egregious that I just couldn't let it go by so I wasted 5 minutes or so letting him know that he was all wet.

In contrast, my first CHL instructor was very good, interesting, and very well informed about the law.

Basically, the competence of CHL instructors varies over a very wide range.

Finally, I advocate being very careful about dispensing advice about legal matters. Beyond the standard "IANAL" disclaimer, we should realize that the person who posed the question might well follow our advice. And if it turns out that we were full of baloney that person who was unwise enough to follow our inaccurate advice will pay the price - not we who gave it. So for my part, I like to err on the side of caution.

By that I mean that if someone follows my advice and more thoroughly conceals their gun, there is pretty much no downside to them doing that. Whether I am right or wrong, they won't get arrested if they take my advice. And as long as they conceal the gun in such a way that they can still access it easily if needed, they will not be putting themselves at a tactical disadvantage in the unlikely event that they do need it.

In contrast, if someone (in this case) goes along with the idea that the gun stashed in the door pocket as shown in the photo is legally concealed, and that idea turns out to be wrong, they can find themselves in a tub of some pretty expensive hot water.

[Mike1951]

I'm going by what my instructor taught me and considering that he helped write the CHL laws, I'll trust his teachings.

I guess we should all be beholden to your instructor for his efforts, but the finished product doesn't always resemble what was first submitted.

If the opinion of a working officer differs from that of your instructor, you'd be well advised to listen to the officer.

[rbraughn]

What some of you may be missing is when the door is shut, in most vehicles, the gun is usually hidden from view by either the seats or the driver when looking through the passenger window. So IMO it would be concealed to normal observation while driving/occupied if that is indeed the case.

During normal traffic stops, the officer will not usually want you to exit the car so he would not see it until after you show him your CHL. So my official stand is that it is concealed under the above conditions until you open the door

That said however, the chances of it being seen when you open the door are very high, so I would not recommend it be carried that way...a rag or cover would be better or remove the gun case and let it sit lower in the compartment.

[frankie_the_yankee]

What some of you may be missing is when the door is shut, in most vehicles, the gun is usually hidden from view by either the seats or the driver when looking through the passenger window. So IMO it would be concealed to normal observation while driving/occupied if that is indeed the case.

Well, maybe and maybe not, depending on the vehicle.

During normal traffic stops, the officer will not usually want you to exit the car so he would not see it until after you show him your CHL. So my official stand is that it is concealed under the above conditions until you open the door

Uh, but what if you do have to open the door?

That said however, the chances of it being seen when you open the door are very high, so I would not recommend it be carried that way..

Right. Neither would I.

.

.....a rag or cover would be better or remove the gun case and let it sit lower in the compartment.

In other words, conceal the gun properly and you won't have to worry that your whole life will be disrupted if you get stopped and have to open the door, or if an officer happens to look through the passenger side window and does see the gun.

Fine.

[bdickens]

If you have to ask, then the answer is NO!

[Right2Carry]

No way is that gun even close to being concealed IMHO.

[aardwolf]

If somebody sees it, it's not concealed. If nobody sees it, it is concealed.





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[rl168]

I have a 4runner too, and sometimes I put my gun there also, but inside a zipped case. If the driver is sitting in the driver's seat, the gun cannot be seen from outside the car from any angle (unless someone is on top of the car and look through the sunroof). Even if there is a person standing next to the driver side window, it will be difficult to see because the door rest/handle is directly above it and thick enough to block the view. Only way is if the person stick his head in toward the steering wheel and look down. But without covering it or putting in a case, I'll be worried that I might forget and open the door just like that.