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Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:17 am
by dukalmighty
dave_in_austin wrote:Does the primer look like a light strike compared to what you normally see from this gun?
The primer indentation looks like every other primer as far as depth,I can guarantee that the gun fell all the way to the floor before it discharged and the trigger was never pulled,I have also cocked the gun safety off with a primed blank case in the chamber and dropped it on the carpet from higher heights to see if for some reason the hammer may of dropped and hammer has rtemained cocked and primer is still unfired,I'm 99% sure the gun fired by firing pin inertia caused by sudden stop after dropping from right at 3 ft. to my belt line on the muzzle on a tiled concrete floor and the gun was straight up and down cause I watched the descent as it fell.I am thinking about notifying armscor about my ND and see what they say.
By the way you guys have been pretty supportive and genuinely interested in what transpired and possible answers to contributing factors,I only posted this to make people aware the rumours are true and for people to offer suggestions on how to make other 1911's less prone to discharging if they get dropped like mine,I'm still gonna carry a 1911 for EDC I've tightened the retention on my holster so It's gonna take more than a tug on a shirt to unholster the gun,I have to use a hard jerk to get the gun out now,before it slid in and out without any effort
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:05 am
by KBCraig
dukalmighty wrote:mdek wrote:I'm also curious: was the thumb safety on during the discharge? Did the slide stay in place, or did it somehow force its way back?
From the way the gun fired and jammed the thumb safety became disengaged during the incident either my shirt pulled it off or if it clipped the holster on the drop and flipped it off all i know is for the slide to partially cycle the safety had to be off.I swear to god the gun looked like it stopped when it hit the floor then a fraction of a second later the bang.
I'm glad to see you're evaluating this objectively. I'm also glad no one was seriously injured!
You're right that if the slide cycled, the thumb safety was off when it fired. Without someone gripping it firmly, a partial cycle is exactly what you should expect. The powder burns make it obvious that it was in almost perfect contact with the floor when it fired. Is the barrel bulged or ringed at all?
Steps to take:
1. Report it to RIA. Supply photos and a good write-up.
2. Check for firm detents on the thumb safety.
3. Install a lightweight FP and heavier FP spring.
4. Check that your holster firmly blocks the thumb safety from moving out of position.
5. Get a holster that has better retention, so that a simple shirt snag doesn't draw your gun.
6. Stop dropping your pistol!
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:09 am
by dukalmighty
The gun is fine I just compared the firing pin spring from my springer against the RIA the springer feels stronger and is 3/4 inch longer,I sent an email to an armscor rep about the discharge i'm sure i'll be getting an email back asap.
I'm betting they send me a lifetime supply of heavier springs
I have already increased retention on holster
The safety has positive on off detents and was knocked off either by t-shirt pulling it off or as it dropped past holster got bumped off
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:30 am
by Liberty
Duk,
Thanks for reporting this. It sure does help make us all a little safer and rethink about what we carry, It also helps us understand the safety features of particular models.
I have been unpleasantly surprised to find my safety knocked off on my carry guns at times. This thread serves as a reminder to be a little more anal about checking the safety lever. I know that I will look at the safety features of a new carry gun a little more closely now.
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:15 am
by MoJo
This thread shows how no matter how careful we are Murphy or one of his minions is always around to mess things up. I am glad you weren't injured any worse that you were and I'm glad your gun is OK. I would have it checked out by a qualified gunsmith just to be sure. Also, get the Wolff extra power firing pin spring and install it ASAP.
I rarely carry a 1911 any more but, you can be sure I'll be changing firing pin springs in my guns as soon as I get them from Wolff. Better safe than sorry.
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:25 am
by dukalmighty
I don't think I could drop that gun exactly as it fell that night again,but if the spring is shorter 1 3/4 inches compared to 2 1/2 inches and weaker than a standard spring maybe any 3 ft drop on barrel would cause it to fire, but the fact it happened once and then to compare Firing Pin Springsand find it 3/4 inch shorter than the standard spring on my Springfield Armory 1911 amazes me,I thought most parts on 1911's were standard and I don't know why you would put a shorter spring in a cheaper gun as there wouldn't be that much savings over a heavier spring that would of helped prevent the discharge,I can't get a good closeup pic of firing pin hit but it is a solid strike like other cases from same gun
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:37 am
by MoJo
dukalmighty wrote:I don't think I could drop that gun exactly as it fell that night again,but if the spring is shorter 1 3/4 inches compared to 2 1/2 inches and weaker than a standard spring maybe any 3 ft drop on barrel would cause it to fire, but the fact it happened once and then to compare Firing Pin Springsand find it 3/4 inch shorter than the standard spring on my Springfield Armory 1911 amazes me,I thought most parts on 1911's were standard and I don't know why you would put a shorter spring in a cheaper gun as there wouldn't be that much savings over a heavier spring that would of helped prevent the discharge,I can't get a good closeup pic of firing pin hit but it is a solid strike like other cases from same gun
Your gun probably has the "standard" spring in it. The extra and extra extra power springs are longer and heavier pound rating. A package of three X power or XX power firing pin springs is $7.95 plus shipping, direct from Wolff.
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:12 pm
by boomerang
That's why Colt added the Series 80 firing pin safety.
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:29 am
by thankGod
This could have had an extremely bad outcome. I'm glad you're okay.
Boomerang is right. That's why the Series 80 Colt has the Swartz firing pin safety. So do the Kimbers (sans the SIS models). A lot of people opt for the Series 70 style 1911s because of the lack of the extra safety. Personally I would have thought this type of ND would be one in a million. Perhaps it is, but it obviously happens.
Again, I'm glad you're okay.
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:23 pm
by HerbM
I would be interested in the full pedigree of the firearm (and didn't see it in this thread) as far as it is known. Exact models and age, repair and upgrade history, who worked on it last, etc.
I think this might still fall beneath: Modern firearms in good repair don't fire from being dropped.
I also don't necessarily think this is an ND. I am big on saying there are virtually no accidental discharges, but if dropping it is the cause and that was not due to negligence itself, then this would be an accidental discharge.
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:00 pm
by WarHawk-AVG
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/RIA.htm
Definitely a series 70 there,or at the very least a neutered series 80
That link at the end has some very nice "how to's" as well
a good definition as well
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=15201
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:11 pm
by dukalmighty
HerbM wrote:I would be interested in the full pedigree of the firearm (and didn't see it in this thread) as far as it is known. Exact models and age, repair and upgrade history, who worked on it last, etc.
I think this might still fall beneath: Modern firearms in good repair don't fire from being dropped.
I also don't necessarily think this is an ND. I am big on saying there are virtually no accidental discharges, but if dropping it is the cause and that was not due to negligence itself, then this would be an accidental discharge.
Brand new about a year ago I installed an ambidextrous safety about 2 weeks after buying it,All the safetys work just like they are suppose to,I ordered and installed a wolff x strong firing pin spring after incident,my springfield FPS was about 3/4" longer than the RIA and the new wolf FPS is at least a 1/4" longer,I feel as if the firing pin spring did not prevent the firing pin from striking the primer due to inertia from sudden stop,could you get it to fire again ,maybe I don't think you could drop it intentionally on the barrel and unless it hit straight up and down result in a discharge,I know that with the new spring it won't which is more important,I would suggest anybody with this type of firearm upgrade to a heavier FPS to be safe,they are less than $4.00 plus S&H
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:26 pm
by LedJedi
wow, glad everyone is ok. Got off lucky on that one.
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:52 pm
by NcongruNt
Well, this answers the question that I had previously asked elsewhere on this forum.
I wanted to know if the RIA were a series 70-type (no firing pin safety mechanism) or series 80-typed (firing pin safety integral). I have in my plans to acquire a RIA Tactical, but didn't want a series 80 type. There has been more than one post regarding the safety mechanism on series 80 pistols causing the entire firearm to fail. Other manufacturers have remedied the potential problem with a heavy spring and light firing pin without adding the additional complexity of yet another safety system, and this is my preferred configuration. Once I purchase the RIA Tactical, I now know to get a heavier spring.
I agree with HerbM on this as well, in that I would not call this a negligent discharge, but an accidental one. You were not being negligent in your handling of the gun, and a simple drop as you described is purely accidental. As the occurrence of a 1911 discharging when dropped squarely on the muzzle has been documented elsewhere, the issue is a flaw in the design and nearly all manufacturers have remedied this with either a mechanical firing pin safety or the combination of a light firing pin and heavy firing pin spring. I would contact RIA and encourage them to change their manufacturing processes to use a lighter (generally titanium is used) firing pin and heavier firing pin spring, as many other manufacturers have done to rectify this problem.
Re: RIA 45 acp ND
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:14 pm
by WarHawk-AVG
You can disable the internal firing pin block and tighten/crisp up the trigger on a series 80...not advisable but doable
http://www.novaksights.com/modification ... stallation