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Thanks WildBill.

All makes sense now.

Excaliber wrote:In my agency we taught our folks to load and rotate the cylinder in the opposite direction that the cylinder rotated when the trigger was pulled. On the S&W guns we used, we loaded clockwise for the counterclockwise cylinder rotation. The reason for doing this was that as you placed rounds into the chamber, if you had to get back into the fight before a full reload, you would have live rounds come up right away.

This is one reason that I stay with Colt revolvers. I happen to like them better, too.

Broge5,

No flames and I don't think you are giving me a hard time, just trying to understand and learn.

What happened is that my father started me shooting when I was 8 years old, with an old S&W revolver. Form then on, until I went to the SAPD academy when I was 30, I always fired single action with my revolvers. I think it is the most accurate way to shoot for target shooting. When I went through the academy, they stressed the double action shooting, which was a major change for me.

In 92, when I was involved in the shooting, my old habits took over and I cocked the hammer as I drew. 22 years of single action shooting can produce strong habits and give muscle memory that most other officers would not have. As I was yelling at the guy to drop his weapon, my mind was racing with things they taught in the academy. Included in this was the always fire double action, which is when I lowered the hammer. Same on recocking it.

The reasons they taught double action include the speed and the accidental discharge that we mentioned. But the academy really focused on drawing and firing, not pointing the gun and giving instructions to see if they are complied with. So, from the point I was at, the single or double action would not really have made a difference, but you react to your training as much as your habits.

Another part of the training that kept going through my mind was the use of cover and keeping the engine block and tires between me and him. This was so strongly ingrained that I was thinking it after I was already back to that point (and I must have teleported to the proper position because I had automatically run around the car to ge to the suspect and make the arrest. One second I was on the right side of the car running to him, then I saw the pistol in his hand and I was behind the car thinking of cover).

As an aside, I don't truly believe that double action will prevent accidental shootings as much as some people think. During one of our training scenarios, we were searching a building for a burglary suspect. We were taught to search with the revolver in what we called the third eye position (against the stomach and facing the muzzle at whatever we were looking at). The logic of this position is that the only way we would know [abbreviated profanity deleted] the threat would be watching it come at us and this way the weapon is already pointed at the threat. Anyway, it is good that we take safety seriously and we were searched and checked multiple times for empty weapons and no ammo (on cops or cadets) in the training area. As I came around a corner, the detective playing the suspect steps out at me, throws his arms in the air, and says "Don't shoot, I give up". We both heard the click of the hammer falling (and it was double action that time). Afterwords, he told me he never failed to draw fire by doing that. And I have never put my finger on the trigger until I was ready to fire since then either. Better to learn these lessons in training than in real life.

srothstein wrote:As an aside, I don't truly believe that double action will prevent accidental shootings as much as some people think. During one of our training scenarios, we were searching a building for a burglary suspect. We were taught to search with the revolver in what we called the third eye position (against the stomach and facing the muzzle at whatever we were looking at). The logic of this position is that the only way we would know [abbreviated profanity deleted] the threat would be watching it come at us and this way the weapon is already pointed at the threat. Anyway, it is good that we take safety seriously and we were searched and checked multiple times for empty weapons and no ammo (on cops or cadets) in the training area. As I came around a corner, the detective playing the suspect steps out at me, throws his arms in the air, and says "Don't shoot, I give up". We both heard the click of the hammer falling (and it was double action that time). Afterwords, he told me he never failed to draw fire by doing that. And I have never put my finger on the trigger until I was ready to fire since then either. Better to learn these lessons in training than in real life.

I can confirm Steve's experience. As our department's training commander, I developed and ran some fairly challenging tactical scenarios. The first year, in almost every class, someone kept his finger in the triggerguard and "fired" when he shouldn't have when surprised by a panicked "victim", "homeowner" or "unarmed suspect". Our observers immediately challenged the "shooter" each time to defend his use of deadly force. In each case, he or she stated the shot was unintentional and they didn't know why they had fired. We explained that it was triggered by the involuntary hand clench phenomenon that accompanies the startle response. Hearing about this in the classroom and seeing it actually happen are two very different things. It was a sobering experience for all present, and validated our heavy emphasis on keeping the finger out of the triggerguard until the decision has been made to fire. It left a strong impression that carried over into the street. During my time as training commander in a department of 200 officers, we had no negligent discharges and no unjustified shootings.

I find recollections interesting and it my experiances vouch for the effect on how training affects us.
I had decided to purchace a handgun and obtain a CHL. I had experiance with guns in general having been a thanter and a soldier. My handgun experiance was limmited to a few times out with an Army service 1911, and a with flintlocks. Both style guns need to have the hammer pulled back to fire. After some research I bought myself a brand new stainless steel Ruger P95, I went down to the Texas City Rang a couple of times with a friend who was a competition shooter and a little guidence from the friendly folks at the range. I got into the habit of pulling back the hammer of my DS/SA and didn't think much of it. I became familiar with my gun, became reasonably proficient and went to my CHL class. When it came to proficiency qualifications our instructor gave instructions that we were to fire the first shot in double action and the following in single action. Sure enough I found myself thumbing the hammer. It required a lot of consentration to not flick the hammer and there were a couple of times that I failed to do so.

What I learned though was how quickly training habits can be engrained., and it doesn't matter whether its a good habit or a bad habit. learning things and turning them into muscle memory can be made to work for us. Trigger finger control and manual safety operation needs to become automatic and it easily is turned into an automatic function. Sometimes with only few times at practice.

srothstein wrote:What happened is that my father started me shooting when I was 8 years old, with an old S&W revolver. Form then on, until I went to the SAPD academy when I was 30, I always fired single action with my revolvers. I think it is the most accurate way to shoot for target shooting.

My training started similar to Steve's. I just remembered another part of my training that was very common for target shooting and hunting - loading five rounds in a six cylinder revolver. This was taught to prevent an AD if the gun were dropped. Loading five rounds, one-at-a-time, and then indexing the cylinder increased your reload time and reduced your capacity. Obviously, using a speed loader eliminates this problem.

WildBill wrote:

srothstein wrote:What happened is that my father started me shooting when I was 8 years old, with an old S&W revolver. Form then on, until I went to the SAPD academy when I was 30, I always fired single action with my revolvers. I think it is the most accurate way to shoot for target shooting.

My training started similar to Steve's. I just remembered another part of my training that was very common for target shooting and hunting - loading five rounds in a six cylinder revolver. This was taught to prevent an AD if the gun were dropped. Loading five rounds, one-at-a-time, and then indexing the cylinder increased your reload time and reduced your capacity. Obviously, using a speed loader eliminates this problem.

The 5 loaded / 1 empty procedure was adopted to prevent ND's with traditional single action revolvers, which had no mechanism to prevent the firing pin from striking the primer if dropped on the hammer. I don't know exactly what guns Steve was working with, but 5 loaded / 1 empty is unnecessary with virtually all modern double action revolvers, which have transfer bars, hammer blocks, or other devices that only allow the gun to fire when the trigger is fully to the rear, and which prevent discharge if dropped.

Excaliber wrote:The 5 loaded / 1 empty procedure was adopted to prevent ND's with traditional single action revolvers, which had no mechanism to prevent the firing pin from striking the primer if dropped on the hammer. I don't know exactly what guns Steve was working with, but 5 loaded / 1 empty is unnecessary with virtually all modern double action revolvers, which have transfer bars, hammer blocks, or other devices that only allow the gun to fire when the trigger is fully to the rear, and which prevent discharge if dropped.

Steve was talking about shooting "an old S&W" around the time frame of 1964 when he first started shooting revolvers. Even though transfer bars and hammer blocks later became more common, many people still only load five rounds. Five is also a convenient number of cartridges to load for target shooting. The point is, whether neccesary or not, old habits sometimes die hard.

WildBill wrote:

Excaliber wrote:The 5 loaded / 1 empty procedure was adopted to prevent ND's with traditional single action revolvers, which had no mechanism to prevent the firing pin from striking the primer if dropped on the hammer. I don't know exactly what guns Steve was working with, but 5 loaded / 1 empty is unnecessary with virtually all modern double action revolvers, which have transfer bars, hammer blocks, or other devices that only allow the gun to fire when the trigger is fully to the rear, and which prevent discharge if dropped.

Steve was talking about shooting "an old S&W" around the time frame of 1964 when he first started shooting revolvers. Even though transfer bars and hammer blocks later became more common, many people still only load five rounds. Five is also a convenient number of cartridges to load for target shooting. The point is, whether neccesary or not, old habits sometimes die hard.

True enough, which is why it's important to train like you want to fight. What you've done the most in training is what you're most likely to default to under stress, as Steve's experience confirms. If what you do most is not optimal for survival, chances are real good you'll do it anyway in a fight because fast analytical thinking is one of the first abilities you lose when the adrenaline gets dumped into the system.