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John wrote:wow! sorry to hear that this happened. I can only imagine that it must have been a shoulder holster since he was shot in the chest when removing the gun from a holster. .

I've carried in a shoulder holster for quite a few years. Drawn from it literally thousands of times and NEVER pointed it at my chest. IMO, something about the story "stinks". We are not told if he had the holster on his body or not. Either way, he was negligent to handle the weapon in such a way that he "covered" himself. Its sad, to be sure.

At some point...it becomes necessary to unload a weapon. If this is done inside a building then make doubly certain you have a safe place you can point it.

For those with revolvers...its a little less nerve racking. Just keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger indexed...and swing open the cylinder.

Auto's are a little tougher. Except for some of the Beretta's that "tip" open, the rest of us will need to rack the slide. Before racking the slide, we need to have the magazine removed. Most pistols, in most holsters, will allow the magazine to be removed while still in the holster (same applies to loading). For pistols with a magazine disconnect, this ensures that it can not fire. For those without, it amounts to one less step that has to be performed with pistol "in hand".

How to best rack the slide and eject the round still in the chamber..will vary from one weapon to the next. Everyone should have a safe technique for every weapon they own. Anything less is negligent, and negligence kills! Simple.

I'm willing to bet this incident (not accident), was completely avoidable.

My prayers and condolences to the family.

rodnocker1 wrote:+1 KinnyLee.
Even with a shoulder holster, you would sweep your weak side shoulder and arm, but not your chest. Unless using your weak side hand, that is. I just tried this (without a holster or firearm) by just trying a weak side draw from where a shoulder rig (and also a cross draw waist holster) would be and that would definitely cause that to happen. My CHL Instructor said he practices weak side draws in case his strong side is ever incapacitated. Whether shoulder rig or waist, this appears to actually be a bad idea. The way the tendons in the weak hand are stretched to grasp the weapon and the sweep over your own body could actually cause you to shoot yourself and do as much or more damage than the Bad Guy would. Carrying strong side and reaching with the weak hand from behind, you could shoot yourself in the back. I'm going to have to rethink the Instructor's suggestion. Still a tragedy, no matter what.

All easily avoidable. Shoulder carry and crossdraw are generally so frowned upon that few instructors (and even fewer tactical schools) know how to get around it.

Weak hand draw from a shoulder holster: Reach in and grab butt of gun. Raise butt of gun 90 deg. off vertical (to your weak side). Imagine having the top of the slide touching your side. Draw weapon while pointing the muzzle to the ground. After the muzzle clears the front line of your hip, simply point to target while bringing it back into the vertical position. Blade body to target, cover vitals of chest region with strong side arm if possible, and you're good to go. Can be done very quickly, and you'll never come close to covering yourself.

Weak hand draw from cross draw on belt: Weak hand takes grip on weapon (back of hand will be against stomach/side). Proceed to draw straight up. As soon as you clear the holster by a safe margin, you can rotate the weapon. The secret, (common sense really).. is to keep the weapon vertical (muzzle down). If you can't turn your hand around backwards to access your weapon...then grab it in a "hammer grip" (thumb pointing towards butt of gun). Draw weapon, keep muzzle pointed down. When clear of the holster, roll weapon across side, chest or stomach into proper grip. Also, you can move it to a position (clinched between the knees with muzzle facing forward) and regain a proper grip, or even move it to the crook of the elbow on the strong side and re-grip.

Behind the back strong side carry/ weak hand draw: Easiest of all. Back of hand will be against your back. Draw pistol, leave back of hand against your back (weapon as vertical as possible) and trace your way back around the body (muzzle down) until you reach the mid-line of your weak side. Let your hand and arm assume a normal firing position as you present the weapon from this point on. Again, its only a matter of keeping the muzzle down and tracking your body line until clear.

Try it for yourself and see if there's any merit or usefulness in it. Don't let the "experts" tell you it can't be done. "Can't be done" won't get you back home when the stuff hits the fan. There's always a way.

Its much easier to demonstrate than it is to explain. If you have questions/objections please post them. We can all learn something.

flintknapper wrote:
For pistols with a magazine disconnect, this ensures that it can not fire.

Magazine disconnect can failed. I've seen it failed.

KinnyLee wrote:

flintknapper wrote:
For pistols with a magazine disconnect, this ensures that it can not fire.

Magazine disconnect can failed. I've seen it failed.

Possible with all things mechanical. I suspect the vast majority of them work though. I won't own a self defense weapon with that feature simply because I want my weapon to go "bang" anytime I pull the trigger. I'm the safety.

Thanks for pointing that out, as you say...it CAN happen.

The reasoning remains sound, nonetheless.

txinvestigator wrote:

Trainman wrote:
True, a gun doesn't just "go off" by itself. The fact is this. None of us know what the FACTS of this situation were. To presume that this individual specifically put his finger on the trigger and pulled it accidentally in some manner are PURE CONJECTURE.

Conjecture based on knowledge. More plausable indeed than the gun just "went off".

Did something overt happen to cause the weapon to unitentionally fire? In the words of Duane Thomas: "Evidently".

Evidently the trigger was pressed to the rear. ;)

On a side note, I know some journalists are quick to paint guns and their owners with a unflattering paintbrush. I personally don't think that this occurred in this article.

Sure they did. The evil gun "went off" while the poor man was simpy unholstering it. Bad gun.

+1

we worked a guy who shot himself in the foot playing with his pistol on the toilet.

I think the main lesson here is lost by trying to analyze facts unknown for the purpose of laying specific blame on the individual for a momentary lapse in care or judgment for which he paid the ultimate price. He made a mistake and died for it.

The speculation and conjecture (educated or otherwise) that is being interjected here on this poor soul who evidently (the trigger was somehow pressed rearward negligently) had one lapse in responsible weapon handling and it cost him and his family.
How many of us have made mistakes? How many have said to ourselves, “There but for the grace of God, go I�?
The point here is we are human. And as humans we are always subject to moments of irresponsible behavior.
Be aware of that fact and always be mindful and in control of your behavior when weapons are involved. Even brief lapses may be injurious or fatal.
Remember Mr. Chapman and ALWAYS be aware of the rules of gun safety. Don’t cause pain by a stupid mistake.

Trainman wrote:I think the main lesson here is lost by trying to analyze facts unknown for the purpose of laying specific blame on the individual for a momentary lapse in care or judgment for which he paid the ultimate price. He made a mistake and died for it.

The speculation and conjecture (educated or otherwise) that is being interjected here on this poor soul who evidently (the trigger was somehow pressed rearward negligently) had one lapse in responsible weapon handling and it cost him and his family.
How many of us have made mistakes? How many have said to ourselves, “There but for the grace of God, go I�?
The point here is we are human. And as humans we are always subject to moments of irresponsible behavior.
Be aware of that fact and always be mindful and in control of your behavior when weapons are involved. Even brief lapses may be injurious or fatal.
Remember Mr. Chapman and ALWAYS be aware of the rules of gun safety. Don’t cause pain by a stupid mistake.

I'm not sure why you think we disagree. The dude killed himself either intentionally, or negligently. If suicide, this thread is moot.

If negligence, ths thread reinforces the cardinal gun handling rules. That point is more strongly made when you realize that HE caused the gun to fire, it didn't just go off. The same can happen to you.

KinnyLee wrote:Even though he has his finger on the trigger while unholstering, how did he shoot himself in the chest? He has turn the gun around to shoot himself like that. Regardless of what happened, it is sad indeed. Each time I see people posting pics of themselves or their friends holding firearms, I crinch seeing their fingers on the trigger. This last one was my friend holding his friend's H&K G3 with his finger on the trigger. I had a little discussion with him about that trigger finger, but sadly his response was, "The clip was empty, otherwise my finger would be way off of it"
The "CLIP" was "EMPTY"?!?!?!? It's very irritating.

You might want to find some new friends before you get shot with an "empty" gun.

Just read this sad story and thought it was a good time to re-read "The gun safety rules" posted by me but I take absolutely no credit for. I'm not smart enough to write something like that.

Had this guy been a reader of this forum he might be alive today.

PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES!!!

I'm not sure why you think we disagree. The dude killed himself either intentionally, or negligently. If suicide, this thread is moot.

If negligence, ths thread reinforces the cardinal gun handling rules. That point is more strongly made when you realize that HE caused the gun to fire, it didn't just go off. The same can happen to you.

I never said that I think there was any disagreement.
What I said was the lesson was being lost by the conjecture and speculation of facts of which there is no possible way to determine unless one were a direct participant in the event.
And yes a gun does "just go off" - each time the trigger is pushed either intentionally or by accident - it still "goes off". In the article there was no inference that the gun fired "by itself" somehow you have read that into the article. The term the gun went off was used to describe that the gun fired - obviously by accident. He lived for several hours after the event before he died and he possibly was able to relay these facts to those around him and the authorities.

When I posted this I had no idea that the purpose of reminding everyone to always be safe would cause such a need to debate the issue.
I give up! Be aware of safety, or don't - your choice!

Many accidental discharges are due to somebody pulling the trigger, but not every one. Loaded long guns without a firing pin block can discharge just by impact. Some guns are safer than others, but it's best to follow the 4 rules reguardless.

I have to say, I'm curious what kind of handgun Chapman had.

Trainman wrote: And yes a gun does "just go off" - each time the trigger is pushed either intentionally or by accident - it still "goes off". In the article there was no inference that the gun fired "by itself" somehow you have read that into the article. The term the gun went off was used to describe that the gun fired - obviously by accident. He lived for several hours after the event before he died and he possibly was able to relay these facts to those around him and the authorities.

Now you are being silly and argumentative.

"Guns do 'just go off', each time the trigger is pulled"

The article did imply, especially to those ignorant of firearms, that the gun simply discharged of its own decision without outside influence.

My changing of the words in the article was spot on. We should alll remember this when handling firearms:

KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF OF THE TRIGGER UNTIL ON TARGET AND READY TO FIRE

NEVER ALLOW THE MUZZLE TO COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.

"tx" my friend...

Let me (professional) handle the sarcasm and comedy/dry humor, ok?

It takes years of dedication and hard work to master the art...

I think you tried much too hard...

"When you can snatch the pebble from my hand...It will be your time..."

Y'all be nice nah, ya hear!

(I'm so going to get a big noogie for this one!)

It was worth reading through all the bickering just to read Stevies post. Grasshopper must learn from the master.

Play nice guys. Remember we are all armed.