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Excaliber wrote:The type of reaction I described in my earlier post is far more likely than submission and compliance,

I'm sure you're right about that.

Child abusers and wife beaters generally are not irrational. They commit their evil deeds out of view of witnesses.

Someone who goes berserk in the way described in this article is mentally ill, under the influence, or both (very common).

- Jim

I think you have gotten the answer to both halves of the question asked, even if most people did not realize the split. I agree with the answers.

Yes, you would be legal (IMO) in drawing against the woman, especially as she tried to throw the child in front of a moving car.

And no, you probably should not draw as it would be very poor tactics. As pointed out, the woman was not acting rationally and she probably would not have obeyed you. You would end up either in hand to hand combat or in a shooting. In either case, witnesses would not generally understand the law or that you are a good guy. The general public thinks of combat in terms of a fair fight (hand to hand, knife to knife, gun to gun). This is why a good defense attorney in a police use of force situation first makes sure to call experts to explain how force is justified.

One last thing to point out on this. I am really concerned about the witnesses that were there. Obviously, most of them did nothing in the actual case except possibly calling 911. This could have been the bystander effect, which is well documented. If so, they would also jump in once one person does, and it could go bad. I may also have a bad sense of how many witnesses there were. I cannot understand anyone not jumping in to protect a child, but I know it happens.

The court will slap her on the wrist and prescribe a course in anger management...

seamusTX wrote:Someone who goes berserk in the way described in this article is mentally ill, under the influence, or both (very common).

Even though it's not likely to be effective enough on this sort of person, pepper spray would be a much better first choice. If nothing else, it shows you tried lesser force before resorting to hand-to-hand or shooting, and it might just distract and blind her long enough to get the kid out of reach.

Of course, you must first convince certain bystanders that "she" is actually a transvestite, since, as the soccer coach thread shows, there are plenty who don't understand the difference between a woman and a lady, and will physically attack you for even yelling at a female.

I agree that pepper spray would be both justified and useful in this situation.

After sleeping on Excaliber's points, I wanted to elaborate on a couple of them.

The possiblity of witnesses getting involved and fighting you would depend very much on factors like the sex and race of all the people involved, the number of witnesses, and the way you were dressed. A guy in a suit does not look like a mugger or kidnapper to most people. A guy in ragged clothes or leather does.

I agreed all along that this situation had the potential to go badly for the defender, and all these hypothetical discussions are a good way to avoid the mentality that a pistol is going to solve every problem.

- Jim

HighVelocity wrote:Ever see the footage of LT hitting Joe Thiesman so hard that it ended Joe's football career? You would have seen a reinactment of it had I been at that bus stop.

You really know how to make a man cringe!!!

This whole incidentr doesn't appear to have a winning side at all...Good for the situation that a person was able to stop in time before hitting the child that was thrown out into the street...Other than that, I can only hypothisize that this was the best course of action and calling law enforcement, while staying in the vehicle was the best course of action...

Drawing a firearm on a woman who is doing this to a child, to me certainly has its chivalrous upsides...But legally, in my opinion it will be your test case...

I just remember some things over the years that keeps telling me we are not law enforcement, and not in a position, in some cases/situations compelled to act as such and intervene...We make much better witnesses in some cases, more often that not...

But in this situation, we could be creative to a point...Just think...If you drew your firearm and she did not comply, would you shoot to stop her??? She would have already have to throw the child out in traffic again...Then what??? Shooting her after the fact would look very bad on you...And the child still might get hit...So what has been accomplished???

So many "what-ifs" in this one to believe drawing on her (threatening to use deadly force) to somehow believe she would comply with your instructions is fairly slim...

But this is just my opinion...

stevie_d_64 wrote: I just remember some things over the years that keeps telling me we are not law enforcement, and not in a position, in some cases/situations compelled to act as such and intervene...We make much better witnesses in some cases, more often that not...

Steve, that is very wise advise. I think we could avoid a lot of heart ache if we would keep this thought foremost in our mind before all other decisions to become involved in someones dispute. Of course, I realize that every scenario is different and we will have to make that decision wisely. Sometimes it is better to draw our cell phones, instead of... our weapon. Be the best witness as possible...license plate number, description, which way did they go, etc. Do what we can to help and leave the policing to the police. All of the post on this subject have very good and intresting. It gets the old mind working, and that' a good thing.

-geo