"Why do you need that thing in church?"

[KC5AV]

New Guy Question - I haven't taken the CHL class yet but I understand that, in certain places, carrying is prohibited. Bars are one, placarded places are another. I thought churches were also off-limits. Those of you who've been educated - what is the law?

Thanks in advance!

Churches used to be off-limits. The law has changed, and if churches want to prohibit concealed handguns, they must post 30.06 signs.

[dewayneward]

Nope, that changed awhile back (sorry, cant dig up the exact law, but it is found elsewhere on this site). You can conceal carry in a Church as long as they dont have a properly posted 20.06 sign or they tell you not to.

Yet another good story to use when someone tells me I should carry in "x" place.

[AggieMM]

Like mentioned above, churches must post 30.06 to prevent CHL'ers from carrying. Most people stop reading the government code at (b), but you can't forget (i).....

Penal Code - Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

• (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
  (2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
  (3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
  (4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
  (5) in an amusement park; or
  (6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

[...]

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Ryan

[BluHog]

Outstanding! I really appreciate the replies - especially the "chapter & verse" posted by AggieMM/Ryan. I think I'm gonna like this forum!

[bryang]

Welcome to the forum!

You have certainly come to the right place and we are glad to have you with us.

-geo

[boomerang]

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vf3gKtdb2cE[/youtube]

[dewayneward]

The idea of their being a "God" barrier to your church for some whacko is about the same as a bad guy stopping when he sees a 30.06 posting or a "no guns" sign. My kids are either with me or in Sunday school and I want to be able to protect them should some nutjob come in and cause trouble.

Hell, there are some whacko's IN the church that end up getting off balance or something. I love the saying "carry 24/7 or guess right." I have gotten to the point where I OWB at home and around the house because you just never know when something will go down.

[fickman]

I carry in church, but there are some situations I would not use force.

I've hashed this out with a buddy of mine for a long time. I feel a strong conviction to protect my family (biological and church), but if I feel like we are being attacked because we are Christians or because of our faith, then I would not take action.

I hope this doesn't stir up a hornets' nest.

I also wouldn't carry if I am going street preaching or on certain kinds of mission trips where any assault against me would be because of the work I am doing or my identity in Christ.

Why?

Because I have real convictions about the legitimacy of being persecuted for my faith, and possibly even martyred. What if Steven was carrying a concealed weapon and had killed Saul? In the same way, Christ scolded Peter for attacking the guards when they came to arrest him in the garden of Gethsemane. Jesus told his followers to expect persecution.

So - here's a standard that's hard to uphold because there are nuances that may be impossible to discern - the motives of the attacker. If I feel like I'm being randomly selected as the victim of a crime by an opportunist, then I would defend myself.

If I feel like I'm being singled out because of my identity in Christ, then I would hope to show the calmness and faith of the disciples when they faced persecutions, knowing that God is sovereign and in control. Being persecuted for the faith is, though hard to believe and understand, a privilege and honor. Jesus told S/Paul during his conversion that he would "suffer greatly for [Jesus'] name."

Well, I guess I probably came across as a nut or a wacko, but this concept is hard to share in an impersonal forum on the Internet. I'm curious if anybody else has thought this through with the same earnestness.

[LarryH]

Interesting viewpoint, fickman. Will have to think about your statements.

My wife was talking with one of our friends after church last week about our reasons for having a CHL and for carrying in church. (Another lady who had spotted the grip of my CZ the week before had asked her about that guitar player who carries a gun in church and what does he do for a living. Our friend passed the gist of that conversation on to my wife.) One of her statements might strike a chord. It went something like, "If someone comes into the church with the intent of shooting up the place, Larry and I (and perhaps other CHLs attending at the time) will, at the appropriate time, take action against him/her/them and draw their fire. While we keep them occupied, that will give the rest of you a chance to escape."

This wasn't something that I had considered before that conversation. If I ever have such an encounter, I intend to survive the experience. If I can't survive it, I intend to take as many of the bad guys with me as I am able.

[seamusTX]

Very few people become martyrs in the U.S.

The majority of church shootings have been by deranged people, either psychotic or seeking revenge against an ex-spouse or someone in a similar relationship.

The incident that started this thread was gang retaliation.

- Jim

[fickman]

Very few people become martyrs in the U.S.
- Jim

I agree.

[The Annoyed Man]

Very few people become martyrs in the U.S.
- Jim

I agree.

That may change within our lifetimes.

I think I share fickman's conclusions to one degree or another. He used to attend my church before starting to attend a church closer to his home, and we have a relationship outside the confines of this board. That being said, I would add some caveats. If someone invades your worship center during a service, shouts out, "Die, all you gole-durned Christians," and begins blazing away, how do you know whether he is (for example) a Muslim terrorist who is persecuting Christians, versus (for example) a deranged psychotic who believes that his doberman pinscher told him to kill everyone in a church? One is genuine persecution. The other is genuine psychosis. In your eagerness to be accepting of persecution as the fate of Christians, are you letting your brothers and sisters in Christ be murdered by a psychotic (assuming that you believe you would have some responsibilities in the matter)?

So, if I am on a mission trip to Honduras (which is a possibility in my not so distant future), and I am persecuted in the name of Christ, I will likely accept that (particularly since I probably can't legally carry a gun in Honduras anyway). OTH, if a person is intent on mass murder at my own church, I am likely to conclude that he/she is psychotic and react accordingly - and not as a persecuted Christian.

Personally, I believe that persecution of the church in this country is already beginning to take shape - in the form of ACLU litigation and harassment by atheists. But although both make my trigger finger itch, neither is worth killing someone over. . . . . . . yet.

[fickman]

TheAnnoyedMan,
The best answer I have is: I don't know. I would probably come to the same conclusion you did given those scenarios. I doubt I'll have time to interview them for their motives in the heat of the moment. . . hahaha.

Regarding the mission trip, I'd agree with your sentiments even if CC was allowed. . .

[seamusTX]

Who isn't at least nominally Christian in Honduras?

You would be much more likely to fall prey to robbers or kidnappers.

- Jim

[mr.72]

That's a very interesting viewpoint, with which I am pretty sure I disagree.

Jesus didn't really "scold" Peter for cutting off the soldier's ear. He knew that this was his time, and he knew that this was what he had to do. Certainly if you have the kind of prophetic clarity that Jesus had about your fate, knowing exactly that it is upon you, and exactly what God's will and purpose is in it, then you would be expected not to fight against it. But I venture few if any of us will ever have this type of assurance. Jesus himself was all-powerful and would have had little use for tools of self defense. God cannot be killed. It's irrelevant to compare Christ's persecution, which is the fulfillment of well-known prophecy with a modern Christian's persecution. You are not going to undermine God's plan for your life, if it includes being persecuted and put to death, even if you attempt to defend yourself.

In virtually every other example in the Bible, men of God defended themselves and were greatly honored for defending the people of God. In fact this is one of the things that really ticked off Saul when the legend the people were saying was "Saul killed thousands, and David killed tens of thousands!". David would not defend himself against Saul because Saul was God's anointed king and David knew it. But David's progression to the throne began with his own armed defense of the people of God.

Anyway, this is turning into a sermon, so I'll quit. I'm sure there are many on this forum far more qualified to preach on this topic.