cop shoots perp 22 times, 17 center mass, and perp live...

[Excaliber]

It's conclusive.

.40 =/< 9mm

Most police agencies didn't go through the considerable expense to move away from the 9mm in favor of the .40 or .45 for "= / <" performance.

Some smaller rounds perform well when they expand to the size of the larger calibers, which is an iffy proposition. With larger diameter rounds, a caliber size hole is guaranteed and things get better still if they expand. The advantage is that they never shrink.

That being said, there is no magic pistol round. They all produce incapacitation by the same mechanisms.

With equal shot placement, bigger holes generally produce more rapid incapacitation, but that's a long way from the mythical "guaranteed one shot stop" as the story that started this post makes really clear.

[CopOnce]

I carry a 9mm just for the purpose of control. I've shot all the different calibers in numerous different hand guns and I feel most comfortable with the 9mm.

[seamusTX]

Don't forget that the choice of weapons by police and military agencies is not based purely on ballistic performance. There are logistical factors such as ammo compatibility, cost, and political considerations.

- Jim

[CopOnce]

Don't forget that the choice of weapons by police and military agencies is not based purely on ballistic performance. There are logistical factors such as ammo compatibility, cost, and political considerations.

Ya, that too. There are number of agencies that use the 9mm for uniformity and the same goes for the .40 cal. It's nice to know that my weapon of choice is also a lot cheaper to take to the range too. Heck, when I go with my Son shooting, I look at all the money he's spending shooting his .44 mag, .40 cal, .45 1911 and his AR15. It feels one could retire on what he spends.

[seamusTX]

There are a few weapons where you swap the barrel and magazine to shoot 9 mm, .357 SIG, and .40, so you could practice with 9 and carry a more potent round. Many SIGs are designed this way.

Some people would say that's a problem because the recoil is different.

- Jim

[Excaliber]

I carry a 9mm just for the purpose of control. I've shot all the different calibers in numerous different hand guns and I feel most comfortable with the 9mm.

Shot placement is more important than any other factor.

What you shoot best is always best for you.

[Excaliber]

There are a few weapons where you swap the barrel and magazine to shoot 9 mm, .357 SIG, and .40, so you could practice with 9 and carry a more potent round. Many SIGs are designed this way.

Some people would say that's a problem because the recoil is different.

- Jim

I'd be among those some people.

The practice you describe is a lot like the folks who practice with .38 wadcutters and carry .357 magnums for defense in their utra lightweight snubbies. If you've ever watched these folks touch off a .357 round or two, it quickly becomes apparent that their capabilities with wadcutters are significantly different from their abilities to hit what they aim at with magnum rounds.

The wise man shoots in practice what he carries on the street so he knows what he can and can't do with it.

[Excaliber]

Don't forget that the choice of weapons by police and military agencies is not based purely on ballistic performance. There are logistical factors such as ammo compatibility, cost, and political considerations.

- Jim

Ammo compatibility is a factor in military cartridge selection, but not for US police. I've never seen an instance where officers of one agency needed to resupply officers of another agency with ammo.

It's true that political considerations enter into the process. This was much more of a factor in the early nineties when agencies were transitioning from revolvers to semiautos than it is today. Ballistic performance is the biggest consideration because it affects both officer and civilian safety.

The 9mm has a significantly higher risk of overpenetration than either the .40 or .45, and they often take more shots to get the job done. The extreme carry range of the projectile is also significantly greater than the larger rounds. These facts affect liability risks, which are measured in money.

The cost of a single injury to a civilian due to overpenetration, or an officer injury due to failure to stop, or an excessive force lawsuit due to very high numbers of rounds fired into a suspect would cover most agencies' ammo budget for years to come. In most cases, the liability considerations trump the politics at this time in history when .40 and .45 rounds are very well accepted in the law enforcement community.

[Morgan]

That said... let me ask you this:

What if you practice X amount with your carry round, and Y amount with something else... Is X+Y better than X alone?

In other words, if you get MORE practice because of the Y rounds, is that good? Or are you better off "just" shooting your carry ammo? I'd think "more should be better" as long as you practice "enough" with your carry ammo to know what it will do and what you can do with it, but that's just my logical guess, and I'm no expert.

[Excaliber]

That said... let me ask you this:

What if you practice X amount with your carry round, and Y amount with something else... Is X+Y better than X alone?

In other words, if you get MORE practice because of the Y rounds, is that good? Or are you better off "just" shooting your carry ammo? I'd think "more should be better" as long as you practice "enough" with your carry ammo to know what it will do and what you can do with it, but that's just my logical guess, and I'm no expert.

I would agree that the "X+Y" solution is generally better than only shooting a little with your more expensive "Y" rounds.

Practicing with a .22 or Airsoft gun to refine grip, sight alignment, trigger control, draw stroke, etc. is great preparation for shooting the larger calibers.

When practicing with the carry weapon, the closer the characteristics of your "X" rounds are to your "Y" carry rounds, the better. For example, if you shoot 230 grain military spec hardball a lot in practice with a smaller amount of your +P carry ammo and your ability to deliver controlled shots to point of aim is just about the same, you should do just fine.

If there's a big disparity in recoil characteristics, like the .38 wadcutter / .357 magnum round situation I described in an earlier post, and the .357 is not practiced with to the point where you can very reliably deliver controlled shots to point of aim, street performance with that round under stress is not likely to be what you desperately need at a critical moment.

[Morgan]

That's about what I figured. I actually have LESS recoil with my carry ammo than my range ammo. The bullets are lighter by a fair bit.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Carrying two extra mags with my XD 45 provides me with a total of 40 rds. of .45. Carrying two extra mags with my Glock 22 provides me with a total of 46 rds. of .40. As this story illustrates, it's better to have too much than too little...

If you have too much ammo on you, you just take it home with you. If you have too little, you take the BG's ammo with you to the morgue.

Chas.

[Excaliber]

That's about what I figured. I actually have LESS recoil with my carry ammo than my range ammo. The bullets are lighter by a fair bit.

Lighter projectiles will usually shoot to a different point of impact than heavier ones.
Be sure you know what the difference is so you use an appropriate sight picture.

This is especially important if you can only see part of your antagonist (e.g., he is behind partial cover) or he is not facing you head on and you have a narrowed profile that must be engaged.

[DoubleJ]

Carrying two extra mags with my XD 45 provides me with a total of 40 rds. of .45. Carrying two extra mags with my Glock 22 provides me with a total of 46 rds. of .40. As this story illustrates, it's better to have too much than too little...

If you have too much ammo on you, you just take it home with you. If you have too little, you take the BG's ammo with you to the morgue.

Chas.

best quote evar!

[stroo]

What continues to amaze me about this story and similar ones, like the FBI shootout, is how much punishment the body can take without shutting down. The perp here took 17 COM shots and 5 others. I believe the LEO was hit 4-5 times although the one com was stopped by a vest and the others were to his arms or legs. Still both men continued to battle well after they had each been shot numerous times.

Lesson I take from this:
- Never give up; Keep fighting
- Keep shooting until the BG is down or runs away.

Hope I never have to test either out.