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He continued to kill while spurting blood from a freely bleeding major arterial wound. This was the incident that prompted the FBI's major review of wound ballistics.

It's hard to get a better it than the above with a handgun no what the caliber. The problem was more like the agents were not gunned up properly with shotguns and semi automatic rifles. I doubt the FBI does takedowns anymore with handguns, despite what is seen on tv.

Riddle me this:

A .45 with 230 grains IIRC, has a velocity of 850 FPS.

A 9mm, grains unknown (maybe 115 or 124) has a velocity ~ 1220 fps.

How would the speed of these 2 rounds affect the person into which they are shot?

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Riddle me this:

A .45 with 230 grains IIRC, has a velocity of 850 FPS.

A 9mm, grains unknown (maybe 115 or 124) has a velocity ~ 1220 fps.

How would the speed of these 2 rounds affect the person into which they are shot?

The person hit by the 9mm round would be hit by a bullet with a higher velocity than the .45ACP. How would the speed of the two rounds affect the person? The correct answer is "it depends."

Force = mass * acceleration

195500 = 230* 850
151280= 124*1220
143960=118*1220

suthdj wrote:Force = mass * acceleration

195500 = 230* 850
151280= 124*1220
143960=118*1220

all i know is its hard to beat a .45 for self defense purposes

casingpoint wrote:

He continued to kill while spurting blood from a freely bleeding major arterial wound. This was the incident that prompted the FBI's major review of wound ballistics.

It's hard to get a better it than the above with a handgun no what the caliber. The problem was more like the agents were not gunned up properly with shotguns and semi automatic rifles. I doubt the FBI does takedowns anymore with handguns, despite what is seen on tv.

You're right.

The Miami shootout provided a number of tragically expensive lessons and the Bureau learned them well. Their folks are pretty sharp and not prone to repeating the same mistakes.

For a while after the Miami incident they favored 9mm subguns, but I understand that the preferred long gun for individual agents on a planned takedown these days is the .223 rifle.

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Riddle me this:

A .45 with 230 grains IIRC, has a velocity of 850 FPS.

A 9mm, grains unknown (maybe 115 or 124) has a velocity ~ 1220 fps.

How would the speed of these 2 rounds affect the person into which they are shot?

The Firearms Tactical Institute has compiled some of the best and most authoritative available information on wound ballistics on one easily accessible web page. Folks looking for solid answers to the questions posed in this thread will find lots of worthwhile reading here.

So are we all "owners" of a CHL on this forum?

suthdj wrote:Force = mass * acceleration

195500 = 230* 850
151280= 124*1220
143960=118*1220

While it is true that F = ma, you have multiplied mass times velocity, which is momentum, not force.

The other theory is that kinetic energy (KE = 1/2 mvsquared) is the parameter that determines the level of damage.

In that case you have

.5*230*850*850 = 83,087,500
.5*124*1220*1220 = 90,792,400
.5*118*1220*1220 = 87,815,560

giving the advantage to the 9mm

Hmmmm.....it seems to me that the lowly 9mm has some validity as a reasonable S.D. round after all.

LarryH wrote:

suthdj wrote:Force = mass * acceleration

195500 = 230* 850
151280= 124*1220
143960=118*1220

While it is true that F = ma, you have multiplied mass times velocity, which is momentum, not force.

The other theory is that kinetic energy (KE = 1/2 mvsquared) is the parameter that determines the level of damage.

In that case you have

.5*230*850*850 = 83,087,500
.5*124*1220*1220 = 90,792,400
.5*118*1220*1220 = 87,815,560

giving the advantage to the 9mm

While these mathematical exercises are entertaining in a mental gymnastics sort of way, even without addressing the unit of measure conversion issues here, there is no credible real world evidence that the kinetic energy of a projectile directly correlates to target damage in a way that allows cartridge effectiveness to be validly compared.

The kinetic energy formula above gives the greatest weight to velocity (it is squared while mass remains at initial value). If kinetic energy were the major determinant of performance, the 9mm would almost always yield better results than a .45. This clearly isn't the case in the real world. It sometimes works out that way, and often it doesn't.

Wound ballistics is a very challenging study due to the extraordinary number of variables involved, and is not reducible to a simple energy formula.

Excalibur:

Thanks for the link to all the other data about wound studies.
I read a lot of it, but there's just not enough time to read it all.

Those of us with 9's can feel good about the deepest penetration in
some of the studies. IMHO, due to some of the fastest FPS stats.

But all the .45 fans can take solace in knowing that although their penetration
in some instances wasn't as deep, they were leaving a wider path on their way
through.

My conclusion - Just make sure you don't have a mouse gun.
If your woman just has to have a .32 tell her to shoot early and often.

Excaliber wrote: While these mathematical exercises are entertaining in a mental gymnastics sort of way, even without addressing the unit of measure conversion issues here, there is no credible real world evidence that the kinetic energy of a projectile directly correlates to target damage in a way that allows cartridge effectiveness to be validly compared.

The kinetic energy formula above gives the greatest weight to velocity (it is squared while mass remains at initial value). If kinetic energy were the major determinant of performance, the 9mm would almost always yield better results than a .45. This clearly isn't the case in the real world. It sometimes works out that way, and often it doesn't.

Wound ballistics is a very challenging study due to the extraordinary number of variables involved, and is not reducible to a simple energy formula.

True dat.

I should have just posted my first sentence, and let it go at that.

Wound ballistics would be much simpler if bodies were of uniform density all the way through.

LarryH wrote:

suthdj wrote:Force = mass * acceleration

195500 = 230* 850
151280= 124*1220
143960=118*1220

While it is true that F = ma, you have multiplied mass times velocity, which is momentum, not force.

The other theory is that kinetic energy (KE = 1/2 mvsquared) is the parameter that determines the level of damage.

In that case you have

.5*230*850*850 = 83,087,500
.5*124*1220*1220 = 90,792,400
.5*118*1220*1220 = 87,815,560

giving the advantage to the 9mm

oh no, now you did it. The "begins with 4" folks aren't gonna like this .. oh no no no no .Excaliber is right though. Energy expended isn't the whole picture. I would be interested in camparrisons of energy expended in common munititions compares to that of a baseball at 100 mph

LarryH wrote:
.5*230*850*850 = 83,087,500
.5*124*1220*1220 = 90,792,400
.5*118*1220*1220 = 87,815,560

if i knew what that meant , i might be upset