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Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:02 am
by TheArmedFarmer
I edited the post above to fix the grammar.
I appreciate your help with this, Jim. I'll send this to the NRA-ILA and maybe we'll get some results!
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:13 am
by seamusTX
Thank you.
You got me wondering how the NRA-ILA maintains this information. It's quite a job to check legislation in every state, which could change at any time in most cases (unlike Texas).
- Jim
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:49 am
by TheArmedFarmer
I wonder that, too. I know they keep up with the laws changing, because they talk about them in their print magazine. The recent restaurant carry bill in Tennessee was extensively covered in their Freedom magazine.
My bet is that there is a disconnect and the team that makes the state laws summaries are a different group than those who watch the legislative actions around the country.
Every state has a group of people who care about their local laws (TexasCHLForum for Texas, calguns for California, etc). If the NRA solicited help from each group the information could be much more accurate and up-to-date.
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:59 am
by seamusTX
The TSRA monitors Texas legislation and probably communicates that information to the NRA-ILA. Every state has some kind of state rifle association that has a similar political function.
The other Texas information appears to be correct. It's just that pesky 46.035(i) that is so easily overlooked and misunderstood.
- Jim
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:41 am
by TheArmedFarmer
seamusTX wrote:The TSRA monitors Texas legislation and probably communicates that information to the NRA-ILA. Every state has some kind of state rifle association that has a similar political function.
That would be a good deed for the TSRA to do. Either they are not doing it, or the ball is getting dropped on the NRA side.
I sent it off this morning. I'll post here if and when I get a response.
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:56 am
by seamusTX
Someone is doing something, because the NRA got the MPA right on that page.
- Jim
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:20 am
by TheArmedFarmer
Well, I got a reply, much more timely than I expected.
Dear Mr. [removed],
Thank you for contacting NRA-ILA.
No posting is needed. The owner must provide notice to the person by oral or written communication. The only reason posting is on here is that posting has to be specific size and information.
License holder is still prohibited from carrying the handgun in those specific places under Section 46.03 or 46.035
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
Hope this information helps.
Cordially,
Kaelan Jones
NRA-ILA Grassroots Division
I went ahead and replied:
Kaelan,
Thank you for your reply.
I do not want to belabor the point, but the document on the
NRA-ILA website is factually incorrect and should be corrected.
The NRA-ILA document states that it is unlawful for a handgun
license holder to carry a handgun on the premises of a hospital
or nursing home, a place of religious worship, etc. This is
simply not true.
The NRA-ILA document is saying that these areas are off-limits,
period, and that's incorrect.
CHL holders are free to enter those places UNLESS they have
received lawful notice that they may not carry there.
The NRA-ILA document makes no mention of the posting exception.
This is telling people that a hospital or church is off-limits,
period, when it is not.
Charles Cotton is an NRA board member, and an attorney in Texas.
He has been instrumental in getting most of these changes made to
the law, and he can easily be contacted to confirm this
information.
This hospital and church issue is a common misunderstanding in
Texas, and we need to get the right information out there. Even
many CHL instructors don't know this law, and allowing a
factually incorrect document to remain on the NRA-ILA website
further perpetuates that error.
[My name]
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:36 am
by seamusTX
Well, you did what you could do.
That's a good lesson to be careful about information from sites such as that. Packing.org was peer-reviewed, which gave interested parties a chance to correct errors.
I don't know hangunlaw.us works. The site doesn't say.
- Jim
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:44 am
by TheArmedFarmer
The handgunlaw.us document is correct. It's a shame that three guy operating that site can get it right, but the well-funded and powerful NRA gets it wrong and apparently didn't even understand my email to them. I'm just being grumpy this morning, I guess. sigh.
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:40 pm
by mr surveyor
Keep hammering until you beat the dents out! Good work.
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:56 pm
by ScottDLS
TheArmedFarmer wrote:
...
Amusement parks, on the other hand, is an issue that is complicated and frequently misunderstood. The definition of an amusement park is so restricted that only a few locations have ever met it. Currently, only Six Flags and Sea World meet the definition.
...
In my opinion the only issue regarding amusement parks that is
complicated is the exact definition of what constitutes an amusement park. As you point out, it seems that only Six Flags Over Texas and Sea World meet the definition.
Otherwise they require the same notice under 30.06 as hospitals and places of worship to prohibit carrying.
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:58 am
by dicion
When Kaelin said:
License holder is still prohibited from carrying the handgun in those specific places under Section 46.03 or 46.035
You should have said what we all say when someone quotes that..
"Keep reading, all the way down to (i)"
Also, did you CC Charles on that email? It might have been a good thing to do. I'm sure he would be interested.
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:27 am
by TheArmedFarmer
Yeah, that would have been much more succinct. Sometimes less is more and maybe that should have been the case here.
I didn't cc Charles. I figured posting on his board was sufficient.
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:04 am
by seamusTX
ScottDLS wrote:In my opinion the only issue regarding amusement parks that is complicated is the exact definition of what constitutes an amusement park.
It's complicated enough that the issue is one of the FAQs here.
Only four counties in Texas have more than a million population (Bexar, Harris, Tarrant, and Fort Worth). Even before PC 46.035(i) was added, nothing else was worth thinking twice about.
According to those who were there in 1995, the amusement park clause was tailored for the now-closed Six Flags Astroworld in Houston.
- Jim
Re: NRA information old and outdated
Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:07 pm
by gemini
seamusTX wrote:ScottDLS wrote:In my opinion the only issue regarding amusement parks that is complicated is the exact definition of what constitutes an amusement park.
It's complicated enough that the issue is one of the FAQs here.
Only four counties in Texas have more than a million population (Bexar, Harris, Tarrant, and Fort Worth). Even before PC 46.035(i) was added, nothing else was worth thinking twice about.
According to those who were there in 1995, the amusement park clause was tailored for the now-closed Six Flags Astroworld in Houston.
- Jim
Not to nit-pick, but I think you meant to say (Bexar, Harris, Tarrant and Dallas).