TexasCHLforum.com

propellerhead wrote:I'll probably catch some flak for this but why did you shoot his leg? Did you mean to shoot his leg? I've always been told to shoot at the center of the torso and that shooting a limb is reckless and should not be done. Should you have waited until the upper torso was inside your apartment then take the shot?

Seems to me that the intent is to stop the attack. It worked.

If the intent were to kill your enemy, then the ambush should be held off a little longer.

I'd much rather deal with a threat while the threat is off-balance (like having one leg through a window) than when that threat is where he can get a solid position to shoot at me.

KBCraig wrote:He already stated: he missed. He didn't hit the BG's leg, only hit near it, and even if he had hit the leg, it would have been a miss.

Kevin

Right. He missed the leg. But did he intend to shoot the leg?

cjlandry wrote:Seems to me that the intent is to stop the attack. It worked.

If the intent were to kill your enemy, then the ambush should be held off a little longer.

I'd much rather deal with a threat while the threat is off-balance (like having one leg through a window) than when that threat is where he can get a solid position to shoot at me.

The instructor made a big deal about this point in my CHL class. Yes, the intent is to STOP the person at the same time it is reckless to aim for a limb because you could easily miss and hit an innocent bystander. Hitting an innocent bystander has no excuses. Isn't this the reason we use hollow points and shoot the center mass? So the bullet STOPs the person and stays in the person and not hit someone else? It was made clear that warning shots are not advisable and could get you in trouble. I'm not saying what robert_de_niro did was wrong or right. The end result is good. I'm just wondering about the idea of shooting a limb.

propellerhead wrote:Right. He missed the leg. But did he intend to shoot the leg?

robert_de_niro wrote: It was about midnight or so in late February, and I was going to sleep and listining to some music. It was down low, so when I heard some noise in my kitchen, I sat up and turned the music off. It sounded like someone was trying to mess with my kitchen window. I made my way towards the kitchen and sat in the darkness about 20 feet from the window. I About 30 seconds later, I heard one guy tell another to step back, and an African-American leg came through my window. I had my glock with 15 rounds of .40 punch loaded and chambered. Next came an arm, and in his hand was a silver .38 special. I raised my weapon to shoot as he began to put his through the opening. I called out a cheesy "Stop or I will shoot!" and his hand began to move up. I immediately fired a shot. It went about 2 inches from his leg, and I mean to tell you I have never seen someone run so fast. To this day I don't know if I was afraid to shoot him or if I just missed.
.

The way I read this... the perp only had his arm and leg through the window, with the remainder of his body still outside the premisis.

robert_de_niro,
In what part of Amarillo did this happen?
I grew up in the panhandle and Amarillo was my 'second' home, or my home away from home. I attened WTSU... Least that was what it was in the 70's.

My wife's from Canyon, her parents live between Amarilo and Canyon on McCormic Rd west of Western and east of I-27.

Amarillo's grown a lot over the past few years (few?) but there are parts of Amarillo that I never -- NEVER -- felt safe in!

Russ

When I put myself in your place, when I saw the gun I would have shot center mass, multiple shots.

This is my plan, I am not telling anyone else what to do, when you see or read something like this put your self in that position and make your own decision's about what YOU think is the right response, I consider that mental training.

I don't believe that in real life there is a correct answer, that is one that applies to everyone, we are all different mentally and physically and that means that the response in a use of force situation might vary from one person to another.

propellerhead wrote:I'll probably catch some flak for this but why did you shoot his leg? Did you mean to shoot his leg? I've always been told to shoot at the center of the torso and that shooting a limb is reckless and should not be done. Should you have waited until the upper torso was inside your apartment then take the shot?

Yes the leg shot was me just missing due to my shooting position, darkness, and nerves. You should always aim for center of mass and shoot until the threat is stopped.

robert_de_niro wrote:Yes the leg shot was me just missing due to my shooting position, darkness, and nerves. You should always aim for center of mass and shoot until the threat is stopped.

Oh, so the guy was inside your apartment already?

PS. I'm glad you're ok and thanks for sharing your experience. It really helps people like me think through the scenario. It's a good mental exercise.

kw5kw wrote:robert_de_niro,
In what part of Amarillo did this happen?
I grew up in the panhandle and Amarillo was my 'second' home, or my home away from home. I attened WTSU... Least that was what it was in the 70's.

My wife's from Canyon, her parents live between Amarilo and Canyon on McCormic Rd west of Western and east of I-27.

Amarillo's grown a lot over the past few years (few?) but there are parts of Amarillo that I never -- NEVER -- felt safe in!

Russ

Well, I'm actually in Canyon, believe it or not. I just figured I'd list Amarillo because no one would know where Canyon is. It was on 8th and 26th if that helps. I am actually attending WTAMU (formerly WTSU). Small world, eh?

propellerhead wrote:

robert_de_niro wrote:Yes the leg shot was me just missing due to my shooting position, darkness, and nerves. You should always aim for center of mass and shoot until the threat is stopped.

Oh, so the guy was inside your apartment already?

PS. I'm glad you're ok and thanks for sharing your experience. It really helps people like me think through the scenario. It's a good mental exercise.

His leg and arm with the .38 were the only part of him actually in the apartment. The rest of him was partially or completely concealed by the window blinds. I would not have fired had I not seen the revolver...

robert_de_niro wrote:His leg and arm with the .38 were the only part of him actually in the apartment. The rest of him was partially or completely concealed by the window blinds. I would not have fired had I not seen the revolver...

That would be scary. Do you shoot now while you have a large advantage or do you wait till he's fully inside, challenge the armed perp, then shoot so you hit center mass? Tough question to answer when you're living the moment.

Any advise from the better trained folks?

Makes you wonder if a laser dot sight would've helped.

propellerhead wrote:Any advise from the better trained folks?

i do have to point something out....

i have read a lot of people talk about center mass incorrectly.

Center of Mass = just that, the center of whatever mass is in front of you.

Center of Mass is not the thoracic cavity. (but it can be)

if all he had to shoot at was a leg and arm, then the center of mass is the biggest target available of those 2 limbs.


advice?
here is my advice. read robert_de_niro's story with an open mind. his result was the best possible outcome you can hope for; no on died, the badguys got caught, and he didnt suffer any consequences for defending himself. there are a lot of "experts" out there who would say otherwise, and comense to pick appart his story and point out "what he did wrong"... but the fact still stands; the outcome was great. its easy to point a finger, but remember, you always have three pointing right back at you.

there is a lot of bull that gets tossed around (especially on the internet). just make sure to lookout for #1 and be sure not to step in #2.

+1 good job rooster.

therooster wrote:

propellerhead wrote:Any advise from the better trained folks?

i do have to point something out....

i have read a lot of people talk about center mass incorrectly.

Center of Mass = just that, the center of whatever mass is in front of you.

Center of Mass is not the thoracic cavity. (but it can be)

if all he had to shoot at was a leg and arm, then the center of mass is the biggest target available of those 2 limbs.


advice?
here is my advice. read robert_de_niro's story with an open mind. his result was the best possible outcome you can hope for; no on died, the badguys got caught, and he didnt suffer any consequences for defending himself. there are a lot of "experts" out there who would say otherwise, and comense to pick appart his story and point out "what he did wrong"... but the fact still stands; the outcome was great. its easy to point a finger, but remember, you always have three pointing right back at you.

there is a lot of bull that gets tossed around (especially on the internet). just make sure to lookout for #1 and be sure not to step in #2.

Very good post.

robert_de_niro wrote:

kw5kw wrote:robert_de_niro,
In what part of Amarillo did this happen?
I grew up in the panhandle and Amarillo was my 'second' home, or my home away from home. I attened WTSU... Least that was what it was in the 70's.

My wife's from Canyon, her parents live between Amarilo and Canyon on McCormic Rd west of Western and east of I-27.

Amarillo's grown a lot over the past few years (few?) but there are parts of Amarillo that I never -- NEVER -- felt safe in!

Russ

Well, I'm actually in Canyon, believe it or not. I just figured I'd list Amarillo because no one would know where Canyon is. It was on 8th and 26th if that helps. I am actually attending WTAMU (formerly WTSU). Small world, eh?

Been a while since I've been up there, but...
is that east of ... I forget the name of the street... the main N/S drag thru town?

We lived in a small apt complex just east of that street and 8th Ave for a while when we were first married in '71.

Russ


And, I had it right... perp only had an arm and a leg in the window at the time!

robert_de_niro wrote:

kw5kw wrote:robert_de_niro,
In what part of Amarillo did this happen?
I grew up in the panhandle and Amarillo was my 'second' home, or my home away from home. I attened WTSU... Least that was what it was in the 70's.

My wife's from Canyon, her parents live between Amarilo and Canyon on McCormic Rd west of Western and east of I-27.

Amarillo's grown a lot over the past few years (few?) but there are parts of Amarillo that I never -- NEVER -- felt safe in!

Russ

Well, I'm actually in Canyon, believe it or not. I just figured I'd list Amarillo because no one would know where Canyon is. It was on 8th and 26th if that helps. I am actually attending WTAMU (formerly WTSU). Small world, eh?

Well, I said Canyon for the wife... but she's from Umbarger!