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casingpoint wrote:All kidding aside, it is the right of the citizens of Toledo, as elsewhere in the U.S., to pack guns without any infringements upon that right, according to a government document I read in college.

Ideally the law abiding do have a right to carry an arm any way and anywhere they choose. However, the reality is that Ohio does not recognize the authority of the U.S. Constitution over Ohio law when it comes to the Second Amendment. This means no person can carry a concealed weapon in Ohio without obeying state law. So because state law trumps the 2A they have no right to carry concealed guns and certainly no right to get into a shootout. They, like us, may buy the privilege from the State of Ohio if they qualify and don’t get into drug related gang shootouts which would surly void their permit.

If we continue to think we have Second Amendment rights when we cannot exercise those rights I think we are kidding ourselves. Neither the states nor federal government recognize our 2A rights. Heller helped but we have a long way to go to include getting the 14th Amendment incorporated to the states.

My point is that rights vanish the moment the person with the right commit’s a violent crime. That won’t change even if we have our full 2A rights recognized. We will just do away with the thousands of gun laws that only entrap the innocent and are rarely prosecuted when those crimes occur.

This shootout was a crime and had nothing to do with our Second Amendment rights. Get the 14th incorporated and we may have to see if which of the non-felons in the shootout were defending themselves and which were committing a crime by trying to commit murder. The felons were committing a crime regardless. Until then, they are all criminals the way it looks.

Wow!!! Hard to believe nobody caught a bullet. At the same time, it would have been beneficial to the human species if a few of them had been removed from the gene pool before reproducing.

Holy Moly......scary stuff indeed

Hacked me off to hear this morning on the 1200 WOAI radio show in San Antonio, Charlie Parker (the main guy) stating that AZ was going to let people with CHLs carry into bars and such. Then he connected that to this OH shooting, saying they have the same law in OH and this is how it ended. Some sidekick girl on there brought up the minor details like, "I bet none of these guys had CHLs" and "If this happened, wouldn't you want the right to defend yourself?"

I don't know how correct he was about AZ and OH law, but a guy who's typically at least leaning conservatively (I don't know his show that well) mis-using this event to discuss the sanity of allowing people to carry into bars (or >51% establishments including bar/grills) really ticked me off.

Anyone else hear that this morning?

[edit to change a non-10yr old word to "hacked". Well, it pretty much WAS a 10 yr old word, but... not nice.]

I especially liked the one guy who hit the "dirt" behind the pool table as soon as there was return file. He reminded me of a scene in "Club Paradise".

But IMHO, the best quote from the article is

...perhaps an indication of growing heedlessness among Toledo criminals.

Aren't criminals pretty "heedless" already?

The only correct reaction was taking cover by first shooter behind the table and the second dropping the floor. But man, unless loaded with booze, those shooters are bozos. And, the monkey jump dancy idiot outside is the most coward and most idiot of the bunch. What do you expect from a bunch of losers?!

the reality is that Ohio does not recognize the authority of the U.S. Constitution over Ohio law when it comes to the Second Amendment.

The reality is, "Where rights as secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which will abrogate them." -Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 at 491 (1966)

SlowDave wrote:Hacked me off to hear this morning on the 1200 WOAI radio show in San Antonio, Charlie Parker (the main guy) stating that AZ was going to let people with CHLs carry into bars and such. Then he connected that to this OH shooting, saying they have the same law in OH and this is how it ended. Some sidekick girl on there brought up the minor details like, "I bet none of these guys had CHLs" and "If this happened, wouldn't you want the right to defend yourself?"

I don't know how correct he was about AZ and OH law, but a guy who's typically at least leaning conservatively (I don't know his show that well) mis-using this event to discuss the sanity of allowing people to carry into bars (or >51% establishments including bar/grills) really ticked me off.

Anyone else hear that this morning?

[edit to change a non-10yr old word to "hacked". Well, it pretty much WAS a 10 yr old word, but... not nice.]

Yeah, It's true, I talked to a buddy of mine yesterday who lives in Phoenix and he was telling me that consealed cary in bars passed the AZ legislature on Monday. He was speculating that this sort of thing was going to be the result and I was trying to explain that we CHL's are a responsible group and don't do Wild West Shoot Outs at bars. He wasn't convenienced. I need to work on him some more. Hope he doesn't hear about the Toledo thing.

Just a question on the law: is it legal to carry a handgun in a bar in Ohio? I don't know, just curious. I watched the video twice and I have to say the people in the video doing all the shooting don't strike me as the type of people who would bother with a license to carry anyway.

YabuUS wrote:Just a question on the law: is it legal to carry a handgun in a bar in Ohio? I don't know, just curious. I watched the video twice and I have to say the people in the video doing all the shooting don't strike me as the type of people who would bother with a license to carry anyway.

These guys were not carrying legally and actually looked to be 'bangers. Ohio is more strict than Texas and many other states. Concealed carry is not allowed anywhere that has a Class D license for liquor being consumed on premise unless you are the owner or employee and not drinking. Here is the guidelines from http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/ohio.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which is a real good resource for any state.

• Licensed D-Liquor Permit premises in which any person is consuming liquor. Concealed firearms are
banned in premises for which a D permit has been issued or in an open air arena for which a permit of that
nature has been issued. There are some exceptions to this prohibition. The prohibition does not apply to
principal holder of D permit as long as principal holder is not consuming liquor. The prohibition does not
apply to an agent or employee of the principal holder who is also a peace officer who is also off duty.
Possession of a concealed firearm is allowed in a retail store with a D-6 or D-8 permit as long as concealed
carry license holder is not consuming liquor. Class D permits are generally issued to an establishment that
sells alcohol for consumption on the premises. In any event, be certain of the type of permit and whether
liquor is being consumed before you enter with a concealed handgun.

shootthesheet wrote:

casingpoint wrote:All kidding aside, it is the right of the citizens of Toledo, as elsewhere in the U.S., to pack guns without any infringements upon that right, according to a government document I read in college.

Ideally the law abiding do have a right to carry an arm any way and anywhere they choose. However, the reality is that Ohio does not recognize the authority of the U.S. Constitution over Ohio law when it comes to the Second Amendment. This means no person can carry a concealed weapon in Ohio without obeying state law. So because state law trumps the 2A they have no right to carry concealed guns and certainly no right to get into a shootout. They, like us, may buy the privilege from the State of Ohio if they qualify and don’t get into drug related gang shootouts which would surly void their permit.

If we continue to think we have Second Amendment rights when we cannot exercise those rights I think we are kidding ourselves. Neither the states nor federal government recognize our 2A rights. Heller helped but we have a long way to go to include getting the 14th Amendment incorporated to the states.

My point is that rights vanish the moment the person with the right commit’s a violent crime. That won’t change even if we have our full 2A rights recognized. We will just do away with the thousands of gun laws that only entrap the innocent and are rarely prosecuted when those crimes occur.

This shootout was a crime and had nothing to do with our Second Amendment rights. Get the 14th incorporated and we may have to see if which of the non-felons in the shootout were defending themselves and which were committing a crime by trying to commit murder. The felons were committing a crime regardless. Until then, they are all criminals the way it looks.

Excellent points.

They must not have a chance to install their HoMeBoY (TM) Nyte-Sytes yet

I saw a set of these on a Glock with a chromed slide with some gold accents at one of the local gun shops.