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USA1 wrote:

MechAg94 wrote: I guess everyone needs to practice with unaimed shooting and see where they tend to hit.

that's how i practice 90% of the time at the range .
its one thing to take your time while carefully aligning your sights , and another to practice "real world" shooting .

When I'm at the range most (not all) of my shooting is with one hand. In a real world situation I figure that is how I will probably have to use the weapon. If I have the time to take careful aim using both hands, then I probably have the time to avoid the situation altogether. That's not a hard and fast rule, of course, but I think it is important to practice shooting the way you will most likely have to shoot - if you ever have to shoot.

I shooting the majority of my practice sessions free style (two hands) but always shoot at least 1 magazine each with strong hand only, support hand only and at bad breath distance from retention position (arm against body fired from hip).

My son the PFC has almost convinced me to put my Kimber in the safe and carry a Desert Eagle 50 AE because there are no worries about ammo failing to disable the goblin. (but I do look a little conspicuous in the full length black duster that I need as a concealment garment and am a little worried I may get a flag for unnecessary roughness)

YabuUS wrote:When I'm at the range most (not all) of my shooting is with one hand. In a real world situation I figure that is how I will probably have to use the weapon. If I have the time to take careful aim using both hands, then I probably have the time to avoid the situation altogether. That's not a hard and fast rule, of course, but I think it is important to practice shooting the way you will most likely have to shoot - if you ever have to shoot.

Do you practice shooting from an indexed retention position?

Chances are good that you'll need to be able to "aim"/shoot with the gun just clear of the holster (possibly while fending off a bad guy with your other hand), so you should be comfortable shooting from that position as well. If not, and if you're going to the PSC CHL day, I strongly recommend the class that teaches this. You'd be surprised how easy it is (and how easy it is to shoot the dirt in front of your feet! ).

I recall reading about someone who practiced shooting from all sorts of unusual positions (laying down, flat on their back, on their side, etc.), and thought that was an interesting idea, but that most ranges won't allow it...

Mithras61 wrote:
Do you practice shooting from an indexed retention position?


I

Can you explain what you mean by that? I may know it, but not by that phrase. If you are talking about shooting more or less from the hip I did that once and got a dirty look from the range monitor.

YabuUS wrote:

Mithras61 wrote:
Do you practice shooting from an indexed retention position?


I

Can you explain what you mean by that? I may know it, but not by that phrase. If you are talking about shooting more or less from the hip I did that once and got a dirty look from the range monitor.

That's more or less what I was talking about (just enough out of the holster to rotate the barrel up and keep it in tight by your side). Lots of ranges don't like that position. That's one of the reasons to find a good private place to shoot. Of course, you can practice with snap caps and airsoft guns, too, but it looses a little something that way (but still better than nothing).

From a medical standpoint a belly shot is a good choice. The liver and kidneys are not protected by bone like the heart is. Also a good pelvic shot or femur (thigh) shot with a decent caliber will def drop him and also hurt like hell and has a great chance of bleeding to death internal hemorage. You hit Jim and the twins and thats just a all around bad day for the bad guy. As its been said its much easier to hit in these areas then the head. Also looks better for the shooter in court. Getting back to the question I see no problem with FMJ unless you are using a magnum caliber. In a magnum overpenetration could be a issue.

Regarding tactics, point shooting and shots to the pelvis, look here:

http://www.spw-duf.info/site.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to Duncan MacPherson, one of the nations leading terminal ballistics experts, a FMJ bullet will make a "hole" in a bad guy approximately 66% of it's diameter while an expanded Hollow point will make a hole approximately 82% of it's expanded diameter. Having said that a FMJ .45 caliber will make a .30 cal hole while a .45 HP expanded to .72 caliber will make a .59 caliber hole in a bad guy. Taking into account that the bigger the hole the more bleeding, the more bleeding the faster the bad guy goes down, I'd take an HP anytime over an FMJ. Quality HPs are designed to go through barriers and still penetrate and expand. Barriers such as sheet metal, car glass, wall board, heavy clothing.

srothstein wrote:If you are worried about the vest, practice tactics instead of worrying about the ammo. The ammo choice won't make much different for a vest. The tactics are called a failure drill or a Mozambique drill. The old version was two tot he chest and one to the head. The original Mozambique was two to the chest, one to the head, and one to the hips (or so I was told).

Most police now are practicing failure drills as two shots to the center of mass, then aiming for the pelvic girdle (hips). A shot to the pelvic girdle is more likely to stop or slow the attacker than any not immediately fatal shot. It is also much easier to shoot the pelvic girdle than the head because it moves less as the person is walking or running and is larger than the head.

I am of the opinion that good tactics is usually a better choice than worrying about the weapon or ammo. There is very little effective difference in good quality equipment (just make sure you do have good quality), even in the different calibers. Whether you like Glock or 1911, JHP or FMJ, 9mm or .45acp, the tactics and shot placement are almost always going to be the determining factor, IMO. the rest is personal choice though it MIGHT make a slight difference.

Spot on sir.

There are two factors in the translating of kinetic energy to the target. Mass and velocity. A .22 has high speed but low mass. However its low mass will likely mean that it stops in the body after bouncing around, expelling it's entire energy into the body. Though it can cut up a bunch of stuff the blunt impact may not deter the attacker fast enough...dead but doesn't know it.

A high velocity large bullet tends to penetrate entirely leaving the body and therefore takes some (sometimes a significant amount) of energy with it. That's what happened to our boys in the Phillipines that got them chopped up after shooting the Bolos (IIRC) with the 30.06 rifle. They were full of opium and bound there limbs. The dudes would be ultimately dead but could could do a great deal of mischief before dropping. So the 1911 .45 ACP was developed. Massive bullet, mediocre velocity = great energy translated to the bad guy.

<ramble>I don't know how many people that I treated full of 9mm holes that were back on the street a few weeks later. Though not necessarily a good example of tactics, we had one shot in the left glute with a .22 and was DRT (Dead Right There) with profound lividity (blood pooling) in the abdomen; he was face down. We surmised the round bounced off the pelvis and piffed his guts.</ramble>

Sooo, get a decent chunk of metal, likely to stay in the target and then learn where to put it and how to do it under extreme stress.

I would go with HP's just on the basis that more energy will be transfered to non armor wearing perps. Also carrying FMJs worry me about overpenetration and taking out a bystander or causing some sort of other mayhem.

Check out this site, in one section they do some testing against a vest with various calibers. It's under the Armor Penetration section. The 9mm Slovakian stuff vs the vest is interesting.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html

In "The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry", Massad Ayoob spends seven pages warning against the use of FMJ Ball ammo for self defense due to it's tendency to over penetrate. As was poignantly pointed out to me by Excalibur, it is wise to follow the lead of police departments around the country as they have spent considerable time and money researching the effectiveness of various loads and types of ammunition. And, as Ayoob points out, "....law enforcement in its virtual entirety has gone to expanding bullet handgun ammunition in this country." Ayoob concludes his remarks with this statement: "Save the over-penetrating "hardball" for range practice. Load your concealed carry or home defense handgun with ammunition designed, and proven to be likely, to stay inside the body of the offender who forces you to shoot him. It's the responsible thing to do"

LostInAustin wrote: And BTW...Mozambique Drill- not PC. Failure Drill - is PC.

If most of us cared a whit about being PC we wouldn't be totten guns.
Failure drill sounds like what you do when a gun breaks. If "Mozembique Drill" is offensive. That's to bad, The fact that We carry sidearms offends some people, that's to bad too.
Politically incorrect people are in my experience are, just better people than the PC type people that just look for reasons to be offended.