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TheReverend wrote: well, I'll carry cause I KNOW I'll do whatever it takes to protect my family. this idea came from one of the scenarios the CHL instructor brought up in class.
You walk towards the Wally in the parking lot and someone comes at you from 20-30 feet with a knife in his hand. You pull your gun out. Do you shoot immediately or would you tell him he is better off turning around and saving his sorry behind before you put one in it.
If your answer is Yes then it's exactly the same as shooting a "warning shot". it's just one more step between pulling your gun and shooting down the BG .
Sometime you have enough time to try other options before you shoot someone down and then you have to deal with the consequences.

Now troglodyte's comment about blanks not cycling the semi, that's enough for me to drop this idea. I agree that in times of need, there is no time to pull the slide.

Glad your reconsidering. My take is, if you elect to stack your magazine with blanks, you are then predefining the situation you will be encountering. I would prefer to have the option of shooting into the ground if I was in the situation where a warning shot was of value. I don't think I'll ever be there though.

steking wrote:

TheReverend wrote: well, I'll carry cause I KNOW I'll do whatever it takes to protect my family. this idea came from one of the scenarios the CHL instructor brought up in class.
You walk towards the Wally in the parking lot and someone comes at you from 20-30 feet with a knife in his hand. You pull your gun out. Do you shoot immediately or would you tell him he is better off turning around and saving his sorry behind before you put one in it.
If your answer is Yes then it's exactly the same as shooting a "warning shot". it's just one more step between pulling your gun and shooting down the BG .
Sometime you have enough time to try other options before you shoot someone down and then you have to deal with the consequences.

Now troglodyte's comment about blanks not cycling the semi, that's enough for me to drop this idea. I agree that in times of need, there is no time to pull the slide.

Glad your reconsidering. My take is, if you elect to stack your magazine with blanks, you are then predefining the situation you will be encountering. I would prefer to have the option of shooting into the ground if I was in the situation where a warning shot was of value. I don't think I'll ever be there though.

I never even thought of having blanks in the mag.

TheReverend wrote:

Dudley wrote:Warning shots in the chest. If that doesn't work it's time for a head shot.

LOL - I hear that

Reverend, you actually raise an interesting question, one which a Christian must answer for him/herself when considering CHL. I have answered it for myself, based in part on Luke 22:36. But CHL carries a tremendous moral responsibility, and that responsibility is both inward looking in regard to our own sober appraisal of whether or not we are willing to use a firearm in self defense, and outward looking in regard to not shooting people who don't need shooting. So I understand your thinking regarding the idea of a warning shot. You feel as if your conscience requires giving the bad guy one last chance.

The problem with this is that his decision is already made, and at any range at which a warning shot might be effective (without placing yourself at further risk), it is arguable that any kind of shooting, blank round or live round, may not be legally justifiable. It's a touchy thing.

I recently watched that movie "The End of Spear," a true story about 5 missionaries killed by Waodani tribesmen in the Ecuadoran jungle. There is a scene in which Nate Saint's son Steve is talking to his dad before he flies off to his encounter with the Waodani, a warlike and dangerous tribe. Steve asks his dad if he will use his gun if the Waodani attack him. Nate says no, he won't, because he is ready to meet Jesus, but the Waodani are not. If he dies, he'll be fine; but if a Waodani dies, that person will not see heaven. Long story short, the Waodani kill Nate and the other men with him, at the end of a spear. But while I feel called to share the Gospel with anyone who wants to hear it, I am not a missionary, and I take the viewpoint that my particular call is not to needlessly sacrifice my life in the perhaps vain hope that years later it might have an impact on my assailant's spiritual walk.

So for what it is worth, I have decided that if God wants me alive, there is nothing that I or anyone else can do that can kill me. And if God is ready to call me home, then equally there is nothing that I or anyone else can do that will keep me here. I also accept that God may send an earthly or spiritual angel to intercede on my behalf in extremis. However, I also recognize that God may call on me to be the agent of my own deliverance in extremis, or to be the agent of deliverance for my family and other loved ones. Thus, I carry a gun so as to be prepared for that call. And in so far as it is within my capability to get home safely to my family, then I will do what it takes, including the use of lethal force to ensure that result.

If my use of lethal force leads to the death of an attacker, I have made the rationalization to myself (yes, it IS a rationalization, but I believe an eminently moral one) that his/her death was caused by his decision to attack me, not by my decision to defend myself. Thus, I am not bound to fire a warning shot. My producing a pistol in the first place is all the warning the assailant deserves. If he procedes, the responsibility for the outcome is on him, not me.

I hope this makes sense to you.

From the time you see there is a threat you should be, in your best command voice, telling the BG to go away, leave me alone, stop, etc. Once you've decided you are in danger and draw your weapon everything escalates and time moves at warp speed even though you think it has slowed. Continue shouting "Stop, go away, leave me alone" until the perp disengages or you shoot. If you shoot don't stop firing until the threat is neutralized. This ain't the movies folks, handguns don't blow people back 50 feet with one shot sometimes they keep coming and coming and . . .

Oh my word TAM! You speak with such clarity, presence of mind, and common sense. My thanks to you sir, for putting it the way you did.

joe817 wrote:Oh my word TAM! You speak with such clarity, presence of mind, and common sense. My thanks to you sir, for putting it the way you did.

IMO, a warning shot indicates to the BG that the person firing it is not committed.

WildBill wrote:

joe817 wrote:Oh my word TAM! You speak with such clarity, presence of mind, and common sense. My thanks to you sir, for putting it the way you did.

IMO, a warning shot indicates to the BG that the person firing it is not committed.

In the Navy, we were taught to fire a warning shot - the sequence was supposed to go: "HALT!" (short pause) "HALT!" (short pause) BANG! (that was the warning shot) "HALT!" (short pause) BANG! (fire for effect.)

Of course the way we would have done it would have gone more like "HALTHALT"BANG"HALT"BANG with VERY short pauses after each "HALT" and getting a little confused firing the warning shot second.

====

In my collection somewhere I have some military blanks that will cycle a .45ACP, but recoil is noticeably less and I would be afraid of a smokestack as much as anything else.

====

How does the BG know it's a warning shot unless you tell him, maybe you just missed?

I have some military background too and I've also been trained to do a warning shot before aiming for center mass. This is where this all idea came from, this way i can get the warning shot out w/o loosing aim (in the military you're supposed to shoot the warning shot up.)

anyways, it was an idea, I've already came to the conclusion that I won't do that but it was interesting to read y'all opinions.

and as for the miss shot vs warning shot, usually the sound is enough to scare a BG away, most of them are not that interested in your wallet or DVD player.

The Annoyed Man wrote:I recently watched that movie "The End of Spear"

Amazing movie. Highly recommended.

The Annoyed Man wrote:So for what it is worth, I have decided that if God wants me alive, there is nothing that I or anyone else can do that can kill me. And if God is ready to call me home, then equally there is nothing that I or anyone else can do that will keep me here.

There's a story about a circuit preacher back in the Old West who was questioned about why he carried a gun. Someone asked him, "Don't you believe that if it's your time, it's your time?" He replied, "Yes, but it might be the other fellow's time."

(and to be on topic, I'll agree -- no blanks)

tornado wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:So for what it is worth, I have decided that if God wants me alive, there is nothing that I or anyone else can do that can kill me. And if God is ready to call me home, then equally there is nothing that I or anyone else can do that will keep me here.

There's a story about a circuit preacher back in the Old West who was questioned about why he carried a gun. Someone asked him, "Don't you believe that if it's your time, it's your time?" He replied, "Yes, but it might be the other fellow's time."

Proverbs 25:26: "Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked."

Do not give way before the wicked.

Legally carry your firearm. Seek out advanced, professional instructuction. Train diligently in the use of your firearm(s). Train to use your awareness and your body.


Do not give way before the wicked.

TheReverend wrote:My logic would be that if I'm in a life threating situation I can allways shoot 2 rounds immediatly and if the situation is such that a "warning shot" can intimidate the BG enough / scare them away I won't have to think twice about discharging my gun and worry about where that bullet is going to land.

If you want a warning shot that goes bang but doesn't kill, get a Kimber LifeAct. Then you can also tell the court you tried non-lethal force first. Learn to use it with your weak hand, though, so you can have the gun ready in case it doesn't stop the attack.

tornado wrote:There's a story about a circuit preacher back in the Old West who was questioned about why he carried a gun. Someone asked him, "Don't you believe that if it's your time, it's your time?" He replied, "Yes, but it might be the other fellow's time."

If that's not from "Pale Rider," it should have been!

TAM wrote:

Reverend, you actually raise an interesting question, one which a Christian must answer for him/herself when considering CHL. I have answered it for myself, based in part on Luke 22:36. But CHL carries a tremendous moral responsibility, and that responsibility is both inward looking in regard to our own sober appraisal of whether or not we are willing to use a firearm in self defense, and outward looking in regard to not shooting people who don't need shooting. So I understand your thinking regarding the idea of a warning shot. You feel as if your conscience requires giving the bad guy one last chance.

The problem with this is that his decision is already made, and at any range at which a warning shot might be effective (without placing yourself at further risk), it is arguable that any kind of shooting, blank round or live round, may not be legally justifiable. It's a touchy thing.

So for what it is worth, I have decided that if God wants me alive, there is nothing that I or anyone else can do that can kill me. And if God is ready to call me home, then equally there is nothing that I or anyone else can do that will keep me here. I also accept that God may send an earthly or spiritual angel to intercede on my behalf in extremis. However, I also recognize that God may call on me to be the agent of my own deliverance in extremis, or to be the agent of deliverance for my family and other loved ones. Thus, I carry a gun so as to be prepared for that call. And in so far as it is within my capability to get home safely to my family, then I will do what it takes, including the use of lethal force to ensure that result.

If my use of lethal force leads to the death of an attacker, I have made the rationalization to myself (yes, it IS a rationalization, but I believe an eminently moral one) that his/her death was caused by his decision to attack me, not by my decision to defend myself. Thus, I am not bound to fire a warning shot. My producing a pistol in the first place is all the warning the assailant deserves. If he procedes, the responsibility for the outcome is on him, not me.

I hope this makes sense to you.

That's heavy, man.

Reverend...I am a retired full-time pastor (still part-time) and I have struggled with the "give the guy one more chance" as well, so I understand your position.

But, for the last eight years I have also served as a Police Chaplain. I had to stand before our Lt and swear an oath to protect and serve. I wear a badge and uniform and drive a patrol car (sometimes). I don't carry a weapon on duty. I don't have a vest - I guess we're expendabIe.

I can tell you this from having seen it with my own eyes. Warning shots - even using blanks, end up exactly the same in court as using live rounds. I am not a lawyer, but I think using blanks might even place you in a less legally defensible position. I can almost guarantee that this question will come up:
"If you were really in fear of your life, why did you fire a blank? Were you really not all that fearful?"

Remember that it is fear of loss of life, basically, that triggers self defense and the court won't lend much weight to our Christian convictions.

Well, the guy was posing a question that was brought up by his instructor. I can appreciate him asking. Sounds like he wants to do EVERYTHING possible instead of shooting the guy. Quite the opposite than some of the folks that I have spoke with. Nothing crazy, but they would say that if the threat exists, bang and they are dead.

That being said, shooting one blank would tell the BG that your am sucks

If someone is coming at you and you feel that you need to pull the weapon, pull it. Deciding to shoot is something that you need to decide based on the circumstances. Maybe "brandishing" the weapon will make the BG think twice and maybe lead poisoning is the only thing that will work on him. Have your game plan put together before you get into one of those circumstances. I went through an "evolution" of carry myself and you have to look at every situation differently and be ready for it.