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Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:04 pm
by yerasimos
suthdj wrote:yerasimos wrote:Then again, I have not seen the video, so I could be off base here. I would appreciate a link to the video, if available (I cannot find it at khou.com).
The video is in the link.
Just updated my flash player to see the video, thanks for the hint.
It appears possible that the robbers could have been "stacked" relative to the customer, at least for a moment, but I cannot say for certain because of the suboptimal camera angle.
Regardless of the bad example he provides (the passive, cowering "see no evil, hear no evil" body language evident from the video), I hope the customer makes it out of the hospital and recovers from his injuries.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:57 pm
by SlowDave
Note: the guy didn't say that he *didn't* call 911... that part could have been left out so let's not crucify him yet. Could be that he left and called 911 on his way down the road. Just sayin'...
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:29 am
by drjoker
surprise, i'm armed, yerasimos, 03lightningrocks,
I am not talking about the poor guy who got shot. That's not who I'm calling a coward. I'm talking about the guy who walked in AFTER the robbery and ran away rather than rendering first aid. He didn't even dial 911. What a nice guy (sarcasm).
Even if I was unarmed and walked in on a robbery, I would dial 911 for the poor victims. If I walked in while armed, I would cautiously enter and render 1st aid.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:56 am
by KD5NRH
surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Depending on just how immediate and incapacitating the bad guy's shot into us was,
we would have to keep "fighting spirit" in mind, and try to draw and shoot at some point,
as long as we had the ability to do so.
It's not so much the noble fighting spirit for me: when I get hurt, I get mad first. I'd be more worried about using excessive force (as in not stopping once the threat ceases) if the shot wasn't immediately incapacitating, or completely forgetting that the other BG was there.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:01 am
by randomoutburst
Since I can't get my CHL until next year, I simply avoid going inside gas stations when I can. If I must go inside to pay (for instance, I'm using cash) I spend as little time inside as possible.
I'm looking forward to getting my CHL and carrying - I'll feel marginally safer knowing I have the means of defending myself. We're hoping my hubby gets his plastic in the mail tomorrow or Tuesday so we can make a walk with it. ;)
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:02 am
by surprise_i'm_armed
KD5NRH:
Call it fighting spirit or getting mad - it's all good if you are able to
respond with return fire after getting shot.
We have had several discussions on the forum about how pistol fire
is usually not immediate death. What counts is that we return fire
immediately to try and nail the robbers, not fixate "Oh, woe is me,
I've been shot".
Don't worry about going further than "stopping the threat". I believe
if it ever got to a jury, they would understand that you had already been
shot at least once, and the adrenalin caused you to empty your weapon
into the guy who shot you, as well as his scumbag running buddy.
SIA
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:09 am
by KD5NRH
surprise_i'm_armed wrote:Call it fighting spirit or getting mad - it's all good if you are able to respond with return fire after getting shot.
Well, there is one other concern: forgetting the gun altogether in the rage from that sort of pain. I could just see myself getting shot again while trying to feed the guy his own teeth, and only remembering my gun after I'm too shaky from blood loss to use it.
We have had several discussions on the forum about how pistol fire is usually not immediate death. What counts is that we return fire immediately to try and nail the robbers, not fixate "Oh, woe is me, I've been shot".
I might have a defeatist attitude, but it's more likely to be along the lines of "you're comin' with me!"
Don't worry about going further than "stopping the threat". I believe if it ever got to a jury, they would understand that you had already been shot at least once, and the adrenalin caused you to empty your weapon into the guy who shot you, as well as his scumbag running buddy.
That would be my hope. If nothing else, the argument could be made, from a tactical standpoint, that with multiple threats and other disadvantages to the defender, each must be absolutely out of the fight before dealing with the next.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:26 am
by surprise_i'm_armed
Some people advocate that when confronted with multiple bad guys:
"Everybody gets served once (shot once) and then they all get shot again."
Of course, in this video, if you were the wounded but armed customer, you
would like to stop the threat of the one who had shot you, but you might re-consider
shooting his shotgun friend too so that the shottie-wielder might have a wound to alter
his aggressive plans towards you.
SIA
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:22 am
by Purplehood
drjoker wrote:you know the reason we're losing our rights? it's cowardice and laziness. you know, in the 60's people would take to the streets to protest civil rights violations. a violation of our 2nd amendment rights is a civil right / constitutional right violation. yet, nobody pm'ed me to protest grapevine mills mall, even after i offer FREE PIZZA just to show up and wear red/white/blue clothes and an empty open holster. FREE PIZZA, no takers! people in the 60's would've done it for FREE, no pizza enticement needed!
You might be surprised to find that, sadly, that cowardly, lazy guy is US. WE are that cowardly, fat sloth. You might be surprised to find that cowardice, sloth, and a lack of protest is what led those poor Jews to disarm and march into Hitler's camps, it's what led the Commies to victory in China, it's what gave warlord thugs power over the masses in Africa, and it's what will lead this great country into ruin. Our great-grandparents' generation was the last great generation. They worked hard for what they won in life. There was no social security nor food stamps until the 1930's (correcty me if I'm wrong, my history is foggy). They fought evil like NAZIs and won by giving up blood, sweat and tears. If I could be just 1/10th as tough as them, I could survive anything and succeed at anything in life. We modern Americans are lazy, fat, and cowardly. I am not as great as those old-timers, but at least I try. Trouble is, nobody else is even trying. My heart is heavy for I love my country, but it seems that the patriots are asleep at the wheel....
I would have to disagree. I grew up with the same general attitude that Americans were becoming lazy, spoiled and ignorant. The people are not. If they were we would have a Military comprised of Conscripts. We don't. The people care. I think that the real failure is in the leadership that we continually elect and reelect, which IS our fault. The people are just fine.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:34 pm
by 5thGenTexan
Hi Random
I don't know why you would feel safer paying at the pump than going inside. More people are carjacked or robbed while pumping gas etc... while outside the building than on the inside. I do have my plastic and feel much safer inside than standing next to a piece of equipment with highly flamable liquid and explosive vapors, in the event I were to have to light off a round.
Also inside there is a much better chance of putting some type of cover between you and the bad guy. Yeah I do pay at the pump but if it is late and very light traffic area I normally start the pump and wander inside, if they keep the doors locked I generally figure the area is not safe to pump my gas at night.
Ya'll be safe out there kiddo.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:23 pm
by randomoutburst
5thGenTexan wrote:Hi Random
I don't know why you would feel safer paying at the pump than going inside. More people are carjacked or robbed while pumping gas etc... while outside the building than on the inside. I do have my plastic and feel much safer inside than standing next to a piece of equipment with highly flamable liquid and explosive vapors, in the event I were to have to light off a round.
Also inside there is a much better chance of putting some type of cover between you and the bad guy. Yeah I do pay at the pump but if it is late and very light traffic area I normally start the pump and wander inside, if they keep the doors locked I generally figure the area is not safe to pump my gas at night.
Ya'll be safe out there kiddo.
I have never heard of or seen a mugging/carjacking at the pump in my area, and have only heard a few reports of carjackings at the pump, period. I don't know if either inside or outside is more common than the other, but I feel safer at the pump because I can keep an eye and ear out over a greater distance should an indication of trouble arise. Being inside makes me feel boxed in and anxious. Then again, maybe I'm just claustrophobic.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:10 pm
by yerasimos
Think about this from the perspective of a mugger/robber.
Who is likely to have the greater quantity of cash with them: a person swiping a credit or debit card at a pay-at-the-pump island, or the clerk who has access to the cash register inside? By my reckoning, there would be more cash inside with the clerk.
Who is more likely to be armored up? The motorist who just stepped out of their car or truck, or the clerk inside? By my reckoning, the clerk is more likely to be sitting behind thick glass, but frequently this is not the case.
Who is more likely to shoot back? By my reckoning, an individual motorist is more likely to be immediately armed than the clerk inside, though the clerk has plenty of places to stash guns behind the counter or in a back room.
I am not trying to help out any thugs who may be reading this---just trying to stimulate some thought and discussion about where it is safer to pay for your fuel.
Myself, I prefer to pay at the pump and try to use the same place as often as I can. I tend to give myself a little distance from the pump and keep my head on a swivel until I am finished and am back on the road.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:12 pm
by 5thGenTexan
I also frequent the same stations after dark in my own neighborhood area and both are open 24/7 as we have 3 vehicles at the house and fill up between 1/4 & 1/2 tank I very rarely get caught out needing to fill up in the less savory areas of the D/FW metromess.
It's just that when that 3" 357 or 3-1/2 40SW goes off at night you can tell it's like a roman candle right there with all those highly explosive fumes. I just feel a little safer with some distance between me and the pump. When I do have to remain outside the business my head is never still and I still try to distance myself from the vehicle where I have some type cover if possible and it's needed.
Just personal preferrance, whatever makes the individual most comfortable with their options and allows them the most advantage to react safely.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:14 am
by glocklvr
Stories like this just reafirm my decision to be armed 100% of the time when legal and avoid places that prevent me from being legaly armed when possible.
Re: Police: Masked suspects try to rob Citgo, shoot customer...
Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:46 am
by joe817
glocklvr wrote:Stories like this just reafirm my decision to be armed 100% of the time when legal and avoid places that prevent me from being legaly armed when possible.
100%
And that includes carrying in my house too. It has become second nature and a non-issue for me.