Drew on a guy today

[witchdoctor575]

Hate to rain on your parade, but I am of the opinion that you were in the wrong here, with respect to drawing your handgun.

I don't see littering anywhere in the force statutes, let alone the deadly force statutes.
Sure, you could claim that he approached your vehicle in a threatening manner, but he could claim that you instigated it by blocking him in.
Other than approaching your vehicle, he did nothing that justified any kind of force.
As far as him littering, you're lucky he admitted to it, as it was his word versus yours. Both on scene, and in court.

For an example, spin the tables.

You're backed up to a fence area of your property that you own. Someone has dumped some trash there, and you're there cleaning it up.
Out of nowhere, some guy pulls in front of you, blocking you in. When you approach him to ask him what the heck he's doing, he pulls a gun on you.
In this situation, I would feel that *I* was justified to unload on this guy, since I was on my property, doing my own business, and he randomly pulled a gun on me for no reason.

You're lucky that the Sheriff's Officer didn't cuff you right there.

This is definitely a case where you should have just gotten his License Plate number, and reported it to police. No need to go Vigilante, and try to play Officer of the Law.
CHL Holders are not police. It is not your job to stop people in the commission of a crime. We get CHL's to protect ourselves, and our loved ones. What he was doing was no violent threat to anyone. By blocking him in, and pulling your handgun on him, you changed it from a petty littering scenario to a deadly force scenario, potentially putting your family at an even GREATER risk. If the guy had been armed, and was a CHL holder as well, chances are there would have been bullets flying through the air.

Just my opinion.

i am inclined to agree. The reason for chl carry to to protect against unforeseen danger, not to seek it out. A LP number would have been enough without potentially putting family in danger over a pile of trash. there is my 2 pennies FWIW.

[marksiwel]

why not give the police his location and license plate number and drive away? No need to block him in.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

I have to agree with what everyone sles has said. Was he breaking the law? Yes. Are you a cop? No. Can you be a good witness and get a plate and description w/o drawing a gun? Yes. It seems to me that you instigated by blocking him in and he felt that his life was threatened.

I do have to ask what this has to do with anything...

The owners are black, this guy was white.

[C-dub]

I and apparently the LEO understand why the OP drew his weapon, but it could have been avoided.

[koolaid]

He also unnecessarily placed his family in an extremely dangerous situation where they were at high risk of being badly injured or killed as a direct result of actions the OP himself initiated.

Using the car with your family sitting in it to block a stranger's truck in seems like a terrible idea, even if the gun had never come out. I am failing to see the logic in that.

[chartreuse]

I do have to ask what this has to do with anything...

The owners are black, this guy was white.

I too think that the situation would better have been avoided. But I wouldn't read anything into the statement you quoted - it was in response to a question as to how the OP knew that the trash dumper was not the owner of the land and strikes me as a fairly reliable way of telling, when driving past.

[74novaman]

He also unnecessarily placed his family in an extremely dangerous situation where they were at high risk of being badly injured or killed as a direct result of actions the OP himself initiated.

Using the car with your family sitting in it to block a stranger's truck in seems like a terrible idea, even if the gun had never come out. I am failing to see the logic in that.

This.

Glad everyone, including the guy dumping his trash, came out of this alright. Count your blessings the LEO considered your brandishing justified. This was certainly a case where I would have taken a cell phone picture of him dumping, written down his Plate number, and gotten the heck outta dodge.

[The Annoyed Man]

You could have used your cellphone camera to capture some video of him doing the dirty deed, and maybe some photos showing his vehicle license plate. Then you could have driven on, NOT pulled your gun, and given the video and photos to the police and let them handle it. Trust me, with good evidence, the guy would have been cited.

I understand your being tired of your road looking like a dump and wanting to do something about it, but escalating a misdemeanor into a potentially lethal situation wasn't the right way to do it, IMHO.

Echo what the others said about wife and daughter not carrying. My wife has a CHL too, and she carries all the time. What if I'm killed or incapacitated and she can't get to my gun? Not having her own along won't fix the problem.

[Oldgringo]

Ron,

It's not that we don't like you or nothing. The majority of post responders kinda' think that if you think you have do this again, you might want to keep it to yourself ...and do it by yourself.

Good luck and God Bless.

Greg

[DoubleActionCHL]

Not to pick on the OP any more than the other guys, but I believe you were on shaky ground here.

You're witnessing, at best, a misdemeanor in progress. It's not on your property. Your wife and kids are with you and you decide to block the guy in. You also decide that deadly force MIGHT be necessary because you removed your weapon from its holster and placed it in your lap.

Now... why in the world would you place your life and the life of your family in danger over garbage?

Carrying that gun does not mean you place yourself in dangerous situations; quite the contrary. Ninety percent of keeping yourself safe is avoiding dangerous situations. In this case, I believe you went out of your way to create one.

Sorry... just my 2 cents.

[drjoker]

You were a really good neighbor for helping defend his property. This is what I'd call a "gray area" shooting, if you had shot the guy (lucky you didn't). You are also VERY lucky that the police officer did not cuff you and take you away. You did NOT do anything wrong, but it is not clear-cut. An evil liberal DA could've prosecuted you like you were a vigilante who shot someone over dumping garbage. A moral police officer ignored the perp's "he threatened me with a gun" antics because he knew that you were just asking him to stop dumping garbage and when he walked towards you with threatening words, you were in fear for your life.

If there were more people like the priusron (the OP), there'd be a lot less perps raping, murdering, robbing, and dumping garbage in this world. We should all give this guy a pat on the back and your neighbor should buy you a pack of beer. However, in the future, please do what I do and carry a small canister of pepper spray. They sell them in convenient 1/2 ounce sizes with a belt clip holster. They are less than 1/10th the weight of a kel-tec p3at and they cost less than $10, so there's no excuse for not carrying one. Not all situations would warrant lethal force, but to only have a tool that is capable of only lethal force, would put you at a severe disadvantage. Just ask Harold Fish:http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... arold+fish and Paul Saustrup: http://www.trailerparkshow.com/conceal1.html. If you had shot him, your case would've been almost identical to theirs.

Bottom line: carry pepper spray AND a gun.

[srothstein]

I have to admit being of mixed feelings on this. As a cop, I know that cops cannot be everywhere and we depend on good honest citizens to help us. Most cops recommend the citizen just act as a witness and call the cops when they see a crime in progress, but I have a hard time telling someone who took action to stop a crime that he was wrong.

I will point out that there was a possible felony in progress, since littering is a crime and the penalty is determined by the amount of trash dumped. It could have been a very dangerous felony also if there was hazardous waste being dumped. While the latter is not mentioned, a pick-up truck load of trash could easily be a felony (over 1000 pounds or 200 cubic feet is a state jail felony).

There were two tactical errors that were made that I will point out. The first is the unnecessary placing of the family in danger. Even as a cop, if I have my family with me, I will stop with them back far enough to be safe then approach on foot. While there might be an emergency that would require it, very little out there justifies placing my kids in danger. Of course, I have stopped people from using my apartments dumpsters when i had the kids going out tot he car, so I really can't say too much.

But the second was something I stress with cops too. Never try to block in someone unless you are sure it is more dangerous for him to escape than the danger it puts you in. Most criminals would rather run than fight with cops, but most will also fight when cornered. You might have escalated the situation more than you realized when you did block him in. It appears that just stopping and letting him know people were watching stopped the crime. Blocking him in might be what made him want to start towards you. I think a better way might be to have stopped across the street, then offered to help him when he picked the trash back up (loading more in his truck than he put there if there was any).

Overall, I think I would have to say I don't recommend stopping like this, but I do appreciate your willingness to help stop crime.

[frazzled]

We were on the way to church and saw a vehicle backing into a driveway leading to a pasture, up against the fence. His front tires were just off the pavement. I watched him in my rearview mirror and it looked like he was dumping trash. I turned around and went back up the road and stopped in front of his truck, drivers side towards his vehicle. Wife and adult daughter were in the truck with me, all three CHL, I was the only one carrying. He was still dumping trash and I told my wife to call 911. I removed my weapon from the holster (left side) and placed in in my right hand on my lap covered with my left hand. He asked what we were doing, I replied we were calling the police. He stated that he was just cleaning his truck up and proceeded to pickup his trash and put it in his truck. He then got in his truck and started rummaging around. The wife was on the phone trying to tell the SO where we were. We were in the city limits but the SO dispatchers are stupid and dont transfer appropriately, even when you tell them what department you want. He came out of his vehicle with his cell phone in his hand. He then started approaching my vehicle and got about 5 ft from the door when I leveled my gun and very loudly ordered him to get away from the vehicle, take his hands out of his pockets, step back. I then instructed my wife to tell 911 that I had my gun on the guy. He stepped back and started mouthing off. He then started reaching into the door and I loudly ordered him to get away from his door and to close the door. He started walking towards the front of my truck and I loudly ordered him back beside his truck. About this time the SO came up the road to my rear. He pulled in front of me, I re-holstered my gun, and pulled out my Id and approached the officer holding out my ID. The guy said "He pulled a gun on me". I told the officer what happened and he asked where my gun was. I pointed to my left hip and said right here. The guy admitted to dumping trash had picked it back up. After checking him and me out, he let us go. He never asked to see my weapon or told me that I was in the wrong for displaying my weapon.

Things that went through my mind:
I'm going to be late for church.
Tell wife to call 911
Give license number at beginning of call
If he tries to drive over my truck (not likely as I am larger than him) I will fire until empty through the windshield
When gun cam into play, give commands very loudly so subject and 911 can hear the commands.
Consciously told my self to keep finger of the trigger to prevent accidental discharge, It was lightly touching trigger and I became aware of it.
Afterwards I realized that I did not consciously raise my weapon, it was just there at the right time, I believe this is due to mind training.

6 hours later still feeling anxious from adrenaline.

Ron

I'm just shocked you aren't in jail right now.
You blocked him in, then pulled a gun on him when he approached your vehicle. What exactly where you expecting him to do?

[Y2bad4u]

Misunderstood the OP story. Sorry.

[frazzled]

Thats not what he actually typed though:

He came out of his vehicle with his cell phone in his hand. He then started approaching my vehicle and got about 5 ft from the door when I leveled my gun and very loudly ordered him to get away from the vehicle, take his hands out of his pockets, step back.

Again, he blocked the other guy in. Thats a screaming invitation to a confrontation. What if the other guy had a CHL and was just there checking his tire, and the OP blocked him in. He goes over to the blocker to tell him to move his car, the blocker then pulls a gun on him. At that point the original party could then blow away the guy blocking him in because he is now in imminent fear of his life.

If you put yourself in a bad situation don't be surprised when bad things happen.