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I don't feel under-armed with my Sig P238, and it's accurate to 11 yards. I've got Hornady TAP .380 ammo in it, and I'm sure it'll do the job.

I do however feel better armed with my .45

The term mousegun does indeed have reference to the size of the handgun itself, see the website of http://www.mouseguns.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; slightly larger pistols are referred to as "rat guns" etc.

380 is no longer considered as an insufficient round in my book, due to the improvements in ammunition, powders, designs, and so on. Tom Gresham has a video on the subject http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 7812241001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Of course I would rather have a 9mm, but I don't feel under armed with the .380.

jimlongley wrote:...
And consider how long european police carried .32s and .25s, as well as covert operatives, before they learned that they were not actually hurting anyone that they shot.

Did you mean "stopping"? I don't think there's a place on my body that I would mind getting hit by a .22.

ninemm wrote:

jimlongley wrote:...
And consider how long european police carried .32s and .25s, as well as covert operatives, before they learned that they were not actually hurting anyone that they shot.

Did you mean "stopping"? I don't think there's a place on my body that I would mind getting hit by a .22.

Is that an offer? Did you mean not a place on your body you would WANT to get hit with a .22?

Some of the reluctance in calling the .38 Special an adequate round and lumping it in with the smaller calibers comes from the so-called "FBI Massacre" in Miami. Two perps absorbed 12 and 6 hits respectively - mostly from .38 service rounds. (IIRC 2 of the agents lost their 9mm's in the car stop) That, as we know led to all sorts of changes in caliber, bullet, and power levels for service rounds.

The .38 Special ammo of that day was and is woefully underpowered. It was the primary reason we loved the .357 Magnum. But today, with specialized loads and the amazing advances in bullet technology, the humble .38 is, IMHO, a very useful defense round. My wife carries the 135gr Gold Dot load that NYPD has used and been very happy with. I wouldn't feel undergunned with it at all - although as some here have indicated, no handgun has the power to be a truly one-shot-stop. Shot placement is everything.

I often just carry my 340PD with full loaded .357's. It is a J-Frame and I have never considered it a mouse gun. I ALWAYS carry it even when carrying a full size. I have an LCP with Crimson Trace, but I count it as a mouse gun.

Keith B wrote:

ninemm wrote:

jimlongley wrote:...
And consider how long european police carried .32s and .25s, as well as covert operatives, before they learned that they were not actually hurting anyone that they shot.

Did you mean "stopping"? I don't think there's a place on my body that I would mind getting hit by a .22.

Is that an offer? Did you mean not a place on your body you would WANT to get hit with a .22?

Dang. And I was so careful not to use a double negative.

ninemm wrote:

Keith B wrote:

ninemm wrote:

jimlongley wrote:...
And consider how long european police carried .32s and .25s, as well as covert operatives, before they learned that they were not actually hurting anyone that they shot.

Did you mean "stopping"? I don't think there's a place on my body that I would mind getting hit by a .22.

Is that an offer? Did you mean not a place on your body you would WANT to get hit with a .22?

Dang. And I was so careful not to use a double negative.

I got shot through the left thigh with a .22, not very deep, about 3 to 4 inches from entry to exit and it BURNED! Not something I would like to do again. Of course keeping my brother's ND and my injury from my parents was the paramount issue.

I meant it the way I posted it, it was supposed to be subtle irony, but I have been having trouble with my keyboard lately.

Oh My!!! I grew up with two brothers and I could relate with your main concern! The goofy things we did to try and hide our Hi-jinx from the parents went beyond imagination. But I have to admit, hiding a gun shot wound was never an issue...LOL.

That is crazy....and sort of funny at the same time.

On topic...I remember a time when they said 9mm was under gunned. I think the advances in modern day ammo has allowed many calibers to be considered as self defense rounds that would never have been considered even 10-15 years ago.

wgoforth wrote:The term mousegun does indeed have reference to the size of the handgun itself, see the website of http://www.mouseguns.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; slightly larger pistols are referred to as "rat guns" etc.

So I guess this would qualify as a "gopher gun."

03Lightningrocks wrote:On topic...I remember a time when they said 9mm was under gunned. I think the advances in modern day ammo has allowed many calibers to be considered as self defense rounds that would never have been considered even 10-15 years ago.

My reference above was supposed to point up that the police in europe didn't seem to have much of a problem using "underpowered" guns for a long time, even though more power was available. Of course there could be other considerations involved, such as close quarters and crowded streets, and maybe they just didn't shoot that much anyway.

I have been known to carry a .32NAA as a BUG, and sometimes as "A gun you carry when you can't carry a gun." but even having shot it fairly successfully in IDPA BUG matches, I have no illusions about its effectiveness, even with CorBons.

jimlongley wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:On topic...I remember a time when they said 9mm was under gunned. I think the advances in modern day ammo has allowed many calibers to be considered as self defense rounds that would never have been considered even 10-15 years ago.

My reference above was supposed to point up that the police in europe didn't seem to have much of a problem using "underpowered" guns for a long time, even though more power was available. Of course there could be other considerations involved, such as close quarters and crowded streets, and maybe they just didn't shoot that much anyway.

I have been known to carry a .32NAA as a BUG, and sometimes as "A gun you carry when you can't carry a gun." but even having shot it fairly successfully in IDPA BUG matches, I have no illusions about its effectiveness, even with CorBons.

Not only that, but the .380 is a tried an true round. It was carried by German officers during World War II, utilized by the German police, and still used by police forces around the world. I like the Sig 232 better than I do the LCP. I do not mind the .380 round at all.

To answer the original question - I don't think of the .38 in the same way as I do .380 and below.


As for the off topic convo...sometimes my G30SF just won't conceal well and so I'll just use the P380. I also us the Kahr as a BUG when I'm working, and I don't have a fear of penetration or anything. While it is snappy with duty ammo, I've punched fist sized groups at 15 yds with it. I totally echo the "Its a gun to carry when you can't carry a gun." I would rather have the p380 neatly tucked away on my ankle, than left without a gun.

And I don't want to get hit with any caliber anywhere on my person...

jimlongley wrote:Unless he defined "9mm" a little better than you have quoted, he has trapped himself in a contradiction of terms. .380ACP is a 9mm round, as is .38 Special.

I always thought of Mouse Guns as referring to the power of the round, rather than the diameter of the caliber, or the size of the pistol shooting it. For instance, I would not consider the .327 Federal Magnum to be a mouse gun round. Per ChuckHawks.com:

The advanced powder technology is evident in the claimed velocities (chronographed in a 3-1/16" barrel) for the three new .327 Magnum factory loads:

• Federal Premium 85 grain Hydra-Shot JHP - MV 1330 fps, ME 334 ft. lbs.
• American Eagle 100 grain SP - MV 1400 fps, ME 435 ft. lbs.
• Speer 115 grain Gold Dot JHP - MV 1300 fps, ME 431 ft. lbs.

These are quite respectable numbers, although (despite the exaggerated ad claims) not equivalent to .357 Magnum performance or stopping power. They are, however, about equivalent to 9mm Luger energies with bullets of equivalent weight, which is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

Doesn't matter what size the pistol is, anything shooting that particular .318" diameter cartridge is a man-killer, not a mouse gun; while even a full-sized revolver chambered in .22LR is a mouse gun. The .380 might be the same diameter as the 9mm, but it is decidedly anemic in comparison, so it could qualify as a mouse gun round, although many consider it the barest minimum for self defense.

I own two pistols in .380 — a Colt Government and a Keltec P3AT — and I don't carry either of them, and would not unless in extremis and that was all that was available. (In fact, I may be offering my Keltec for sale... still haven't decided.) My personal lower end limit is a .38 special snubbie, and that is driven by wardrobe considerations more than regarding it as the ideal caliber for personal defense. I don't think you are not adequately armed with a .38 special, so I'm not knocking it. I just think that there are better choices available in pistols that are nearly as easy to conceal as a snubbie, that's all. There's adequate, and there's more than adequate. If at all possible, I would rather carry "more than adequate."