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Re: "The Hidden Brain"

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:01 pm
by Excaliber
austinrealtor wrote:I agree with Hoi Polloi that all of these issues are very real, serious, and should be considered carefully and soberly by all gun owners.

The writer's stats don't seem too far off from what I've seen - likely more gun suicides than reported defensive uses of guns (though the unreported defensive uses are a huge unknown quantity).

But I completely disagree that gun-related suicide statistics are any reason to ban or get rid of guns. If there were no guns, what would be next ... no tall buildings? no cars? no medicinal drugs? as earlier post said, plenty of ways to kill yourself if you've already dedicated yourself to that mission.

If there were no guns there would also be many more seriously injured or killed victims of violent crime.

Human compassion and care and professional help is what's needed to reduce suicide rates (and anyone who thinks they can be 100% "prevented" is fooling themselves)

Banning or getting rid of guns only takes away one of many possible options. Doing so would not "prevent" suicide anymore than prohibition prevented drinking of alcoholic beverages.
Defensive uses of firearms in the U.S. fall somewhere between 108,000 and 2 million per year, depending on which study you read. Most researchers concede that the true number lies somewhere between these extremes. (Details can be found here.

Even the low number far exceeds the number of murders and suicides combined.

Re: "The Hidden Brain"

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:07 pm
by Oldgringo
Abraham wrote:I just finished reading "The Hidden Brain" and at the end of this very interesting book, the author (why I never understood) decided to go anti-gun with a diatribe insisting guns kill more people than save per the suicide rate by gun.

He insisted the odds of being killed by a criminal assailant are so much less as to be almost non-existent compared to those who in large numbers, kill themselves with a gun, thus we should not own guns and prevent this epidemic of suicides.

He went further to state statistics that more innocent folks die by gun by family members killing each other, children killed while playing with guns and on and on...

Anyone else here read the book and if so, what did you make of his anti-gun arguments?
In answer to your question, I don't think anyone else read the book but all seem to agree that the author is full of beans or something.

The authors' premise that "...the odds of being killed by a criminal assailant are so much less as to be almost non-existent..." don't offer much encouragement. The odds that concern me is that instance when BG's choose to harm me or mine rather than others. I'll try to take care of me and mine until the LEO's arrive. The author can console the others.

From my observations over the past half century: if someone is truly bent on suicide, they'll find a way. Men seem to prefer guns while women seem to prefer chemicals. Kids, OTOH, seem to prefer whatever will get the most attention. My condolences to the survivors of a loved one's suicide (I've been there, too).

Re: "The Hidden Brain"

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:41 pm
by The Annoyed Man
Oldgringo wrote:My condolences to the survivors of a loved one's suicide (I've been there, too).
Yep. Been there. Done that. Don't need it.

Re: "The Hidden Brain"

Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:17 pm
by Abraham
I think it was Mark Twain who said something along the lines of: There are liars, darn (cleaned up) liars and statistics.

The author was going by statistics citing states with stringent gun laws having very low suicide by gun cases.

He stated suicidal thoughts are often very transitory, lasting a day or a week at most, but if guns come into the equation the suicidal person is most likely going to be successful in killing himself as guns are highly efficient.

His logic was the non-gun owning suicidal person may take more time to work out a plan to kill himself and often by the time the plan has been thought out, he decides to not kill himself after all.

Perhaps, in some measure he's right, but why should us non-suicidal folks, (in my opinion the majority) be left without that highly efficient means he's so against, by which to defend ourselves? (but, according to him the need to defend ourselves is overblown, cuz, hey, statistically it hardly ever occurs, certainly not often enough to justify owning guns conveniently forgetting that when it DOES happen, it aint just a statistic...)

Yes, he cited other categories of the death of innocents by firearm, but the leading candidate for his anti-gun stance is overwhelmingly in regard for the suicidal among us.

Why should a few (statistically speaking) mentally ill folk be held in higher regard than the rest of us who aren't mentally ill?

I don't get it.

Re: "The Hidden Brain"

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:19 am
by Excaliber
Abraham wrote:I think it was Mark Twain who said something along the lines of: There are liars, darn (cleaned up) liars and statistics.

The author was going by statistics citing states with stringent gun laws having very low suicide by gun cases.

He stated suicidal thoughts are often very transitory, lasting a day or a week at most, but if guns come into the equation the suicidal person is most likely going to be successful in killing himself as guns are highly efficient.

His logic was the non-gun owning suicidal person may take more time to work out a plan to kill himself and often by the time the plan has been thought out, he decides to not kill himself after all.

Perhaps, in some measure he's right, but why should us non-suicidal folks, (in my opinion the majority) be left without that highly efficient means he's so against, by which to defend ourselves? (but, according to him the need to defend ourselves is overblown, cuz, hey, statistically it hardly ever occurs, certainly not often enough to justify owning guns conveniently forgetting that when it DOES happen, it aint just a statistic...)

Yes, he cited other categories of the death of innocents by firearm, but the leading candidate for his anti-gun stance is overwhelmingly in regard for the suicidal among us.

Why should a few (statistically speaking) mentally ill folk be held in higher regard than the rest of us who aren't mentally ill?

I don't get it.
Well, yes, places with lower availability of guns have lower gun suicide rates. This is a lot like observing that towns with only single story buildings have very few suicidal jumps from skyscrapers.

Neither of these speaks to the conclusion that the observer wants you to reach if you're among the "logically challenged": that the actual suicide rate is lower.

The rope-a-dope "experts" who play these misleading games hope that their readers will jump to the factually incorrect conclusion they've led them to without either recognizing the logical gap or checking on the facts. Sadly, they're often successful. Similar tactics were used successfully in the last presidential election.

Bobcat's post which provided the statistics on the suicide rates in the U.S. and Japan should put this issue in perspective. It's true that Japan, with almost no access to guns (except for criminal gangs who - gasp! - don't obey the law) has an almost infinitesimal gun suicide rate. However, their people kill themselves at about twice the rate people in the U.S. do.

The fact is that folks who have decided to kill themselves will do so with whatever means available, and it's not at all difficult. The argument that methods other than firearms are so much harder or less sure that the impulse will pass before the individual can solve the issues involved is completely spurious.

According to the NY Times, here's how the Japanese do it:

"Because gun ownership is severely restricted in Japan, many Japanese resort to throwing themselves in front of trains, hanging themselves, jumping off cliffs or overdosing, the police say. "

None of these methods is more difficult, more time consuming, or less lethal than a suicide by firearm.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Re: "The Hidden Brain"

Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:08 pm
by rdcrags
I'm just saying that one should take the risks one has in his own life seriously and do what is reasonable to minimize those risks.
We do take such things seriously, but we still have a number of dangerous knives in the kitchen, and are not about to give them up. I won't stop driving a car, either, but I "take seriously" the potential of an oncoming driver being impaired enough to cause a head-on.

TX CHL 1997
CO CHP 2005