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Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:35 pm
by Mike1951
What follows is an inspired defense of the Python. But he does admit that you can't use it like a S&W.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_fil ... icate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is the Colt Python "delicate"?
Thursday, May 18, 2006 Filed in: Revolvers, Personal opinions, Gunsmithing

There is an assertion that comes up with surprising frequency, particularly in the internet age where everyone is an expert: the Colt Python (and all other Colt revolvers) are "delicate", "go out of time easily", or "not as strong/durable as a S&W."

Let's start with the construction: a Colt revolver, for any given frame size, is as strong as any gun with that frame size. Their metallurgy is absolutely the best, and their forged construction is of superior quality. They are superbly made, and their longevity is a testimony to that fact. You are never compromising when you choose a Colt!

How about the charge of "delicate" or "goes out of time easily"? In my work, I see a lot of Colts; I shoot them extensively myself. With proper maintenance, I've seen no tendency for any Colt to go out of time. Yet, the rumors persist!

Why do such opinions exist if there wasn't some basis to them? Is there some amount of truth? I think I can answer that!

Let's start with some facts: Colt revolvers have actions which are very refined. Their operating surfaces are very small, and are precisely adjusted to make the guns work properly. Setting them up properly is not a job for someone who isn't intimately familiar with their workings, and the gunsmith who works on them had better be accustomed to working at narrow tolerances, on small parts, under magnification.

Colt's design and construction is unique; it uses the hand (the "pawl" which rotates the cylinder) and the bolt (the stop at the bottom of the frame opening) to hold the cylinder perfectly still when the gun fires. The action is designed so that the hand - which is the easiest part to replace - will take the majority of the wear, and is expected to be changed when wear exceeds a specific point.

This is considered normal maintenance in a Colt revolver, which is not the case with any other brand.
To get their famous "bank vault" cylinder locking and attendant accuracy, you have to accept a certain amount of maintenance; it goes with ownership of such a fine instrument.

I've often made the statement that a Colt is like a Ferrari; to get the gilt-edged performance, you have to accept that they will require more maintenance than a Ford pickup. Unlike gun owners, however, folks who own Italy's finest don't complain that they are more "delicate" than an F-150!

I truly think that the negative reputation that Colts have in some quarters is because their owners - unschooled in the uniqueness of the Colt action - apply the same standards of condition that they would to their more pedestrian S&W guns.

What standards? A Colt, when the trigger is pulled and held back, should have absolutely no cylinder rotation. None, zip, zilch - absolutely no movement at all! Not a little, not a bit, not a smidgen - zero movement. A S&W, on the other hand, normally has a bit of rotational play - which is considered absolutely normal and fine.

There's another measurement to consider: at rest, a Colt cylinder should move front-to-back no more than .003" (that's 3/1,000 of an inch.) This is - in the absolute worst case - about half of the allowable S&W movement!

Now, let's say a S&W owner, used to their looser standards of cylinder lockup, buys a Colt. He goes and shoots it a bit, and the hand (which probably has a bit of wear already, as he bought it used) is approaching the normal replacement interval. He checks his gun, and finds that the cylinder has just the slightest amount of movement when the trigger is back, and half of his S&W's longitudinal travel. Heck, he thinks, it's still a lot tighter than his Smith so it must be fine to keep shooting it.

WRONG! It's at this point that he should stop shooting, and take it to an experienced Colt gunsmith to have the action adjusted.
Of course, he doesn't do this - he keeps shooting. The cylinder beats harder against the frame, compresses the ratchet (ejector), causing the hand to wear even faster, and the combination of the two leads to a worn bolt. If left unchecked, the worn bolt can do damage to the rebound lever. When it finally starts spitting lead and misfiring, he takes it in and finds to his astonishment that he's facing a $400 (or more!) repair bill, and perhaps a 6 month wait to find a new ratchet.

Of course, he'll now fire up his computer and declare to anyone who will listen that Colts are "delicate" and "go out of time easily" and are "hard to get parts for." That, folks, appears to be the true origin of these fallacies.

Colts do require more routine maintenance, and a more involved owner; that's a fact. But, as long as the maintenance is performed properly, a Colt will happily digest thousands upon thousands of rounds without complaint. The owners who take care of them will be rewarded with a gun that is a delight to shoot, wonderfully accurate, and visually unmatched. Those who don't will sell them off at a loss and complain on the internet.

I sincerely hope that you will choose to be the first type of Colt owner. If, however, you are the second, please drop me a note - I'm always in the market for Colt revolvers at fire-sale prices!

-=[ Grant ]=-

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:19 am
by glbedd53
I'm embarrassed that for 40+ years I've been slobberin all over Pythons and never heard of these problems. A lot of cops used to carry them back in the 60s and 70s, I wonder how they dealt with that.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:30 am
by WildBill
glbedd53 wrote:I'm embarrassed that for 40+ years I've been slobberin all over Pythons and never heard of these problems. A lot of cops used to carry them back in the 60s and 70s, I wonder how they dealt with that.
Most cops don't shoot very often.

I have had my Python for 30 years and never had a problem. My brother has had one for about the same time. He had to get his timing fixed, while I did not. He shot his more than I shot mine. Most of the time he shot .357Mag factory ammo, while most of mine was 38 Special or .357Mag handloads.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:33 am
by Keith B
glbedd53 wrote:I'm embarrassed that for 40+ years I've been slobberin all over Pythons and never heard of these problems. A lot of cops used to carry them back in the 60s and 70s, I wonder how they dealt with that.
My patrol Sargent and range officer at the police department I was with carried a 6-inch Python on duty. However, he practiced, qualified and shot PPC competition with a 4-inch S&W model 66 (the at that time current issued carry weapon.) He liked the Python and would shoot it to be proficient, but any heavy amounts of shooting were done with the S&W's. I asked him once why he didn't use it for everything and he told me he didn't want to wear it out. I thought he was just joking, and really was afraid of scratching it from range use, but maybe there was something to the fact that it was not as durable overall in the timing and other internals as the Smith. :headscratch

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:25 pm
by mgood
Most revolvers never looked quite right to me, even though I grew up in a time when most cops still carried them. The Python was the first to make me think, "Now THAT's what I'm talking about!" I think the full length lug under the barrel has something to do with that. Pythons look, to me, like a revo should look. No doubt they are excellent weapons (when properly maintained as described above). But there are at least a couple of S&W revolvers higher up on my wish list, that don't look as nice, but which I would use more.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:44 pm
by eddieconcarne
Mike1951 wrote:What follows is an inspired defense of the Python. But he does admit that you can't use it like a S&W.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_fil ... icate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about the charge of "delicate" or "goes out of time easily"? In my work, I see a lot of Colts; I shoot them extensively myself. With proper maintenance, I've seen no tendency for any Colt to go out of time. Yet, the rumors persist!
This is an interesting article, but the author seems to have made his conclusion before constructing his arguments. In other words, in trying to explain why the Python isn't delicate, he actually proves that it is.

I read an article online about a year ago (I am still trying to find it for repost) where former S&W executives talked about the panic they experienced when they first saw the Python. They readily admitted that the full underlug of the 586/686 was a direct response to the Python's superior looks. I love my 586, but it definitely can't outdo the Python in the pretty department.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:05 pm
by Chemist45
Can I suggest an alternate - The Ruger GP100.
I have a Trooper (Couldn't afford the Python) and it shoots well.
But the cylinder release (to the rear) was never intuitive to me and speed reloads were impossible.

I found a deal on a GP100 and snapped it up. The cylinder release in intuitive and simple.
The gun shoots very well and, from what I've read, is nearly indestructible.

Just my two cents.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:47 pm
by 03Lightningrocks
While the ruger is a nice weapon, I have my heart set on "unobtainium" :mrgreen: ...I don't know what it is about a weapon that is out of reach for everyone, but I love em...LOL. Funny... I was looking for a model 29 but wanted the 29-2... now I went from having no Model 29-2 to having three. Two with consecutive serial numbers in 6"(brand new never fired...even have the stickers on the grips) and a beautiful 8 3/8th inch with the wood presentation case.

The rarity of the Python is part of my desire to own one. Looking at some tonight on Gun Broker... I might just get a trooper to start with and wait for a good buy on a Python later. Prices on GB tend to move like a breeze through a wheat field. Right now Pythons seem to be getting top dollar. There is one that says never fired and i believe it but it is already at a grand with a few days left. I might go bat poo and try to get it but I bet I only cause the price to sky rocket. I would go 1200 but no higher and the bidders on it seem a bit anxious. I like the even more "unobtainable" anaconda too. One of those on the whole sight.

I want one of each... but would have to give up a few other of my favorites from the safe to do this... darn... I need a rich relative or something.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:01 pm
by Mike1951
I doubt you'll be happy with the workmanshp of a Trooper. I would insist on a personal inspection, at least.

I would, however, keep my eyes open for a reasonable price on a Diamondback, if you can accept a .38. The quality is on par with the Python.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:07 pm
by 03Lightningrocks
Mike1951 wrote:I doubt you'll be happy with the workmanshp of a Trooper. I would insist on a personal inspection, at least.

I would, however, keep my eyes open for a reasonable price on a Diamondback, if you can accept a .38. The quality is on par with the Python.
Thanks very much. I looked at a trooper inmy local gun shop and was not impressed. I was thinking it was just that one. Hmmmm... now I have more to think about. It is appreciated. The Diamondbacks I like but was wanting the 357 on this go around.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:09 pm
by 03Lightningrocks
Ps.... your help is appreciated here as well as others who are posting up. Just wanted to pass that along to you folks. When i do make my move... pics will be posted. :mrgreen:

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:59 pm
by Dusty Harry
IMHO, the Python is simply the most sexy revolver ever made; had a blue 6" back in the 70's that I shot quite a bit, but by '83, the lockwork was toast (although I did put a lot of magnum loads through it; young and stupid). I had a 4" Trooper as well, but it never really grew on me. Over the years I have come to *really* appreciate the S&W 586/686 series L-frame revolvers and have several, including a 6" Classic Hunter I used as a PPC gun for probably 15 years (it replaced the Python). I figure I have put 50K target loads through that thing and it just keeps humming along. Hard to beat a 3" 686 Round Butt when you want .357 capability in a carry revolver. If you wany style, go for the Python; they will only continue to appreciate. But if you want utility, I suggest skipping the Trooper and go with a Smith.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:01 pm
by HankB
The Python's barrel is its most striking feature - it had "cool" styling when most other revolvers had simply cylindrical barrels, and it always had a reputaton for good rifling.

Personally, I never warmed to the Python's action - it has too much tendency to "stack" as the trigger is moved back. And I have run into some that were distinctly rough. (Yeah, other makers have put out their share of lemons, too.)

Note that the overwhelming majority of serious wheelgunners - men who will spend whatever it takesin hardware to gain a competitive advantage - shoot S&W revolvers. It's not a matter of cost - they simply choose to compete with the better gun.

Re: Trooper VS Python

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:54 pm
by WildBill
HankB wrote:The Python's barrel is its most striking feature - it had "cool" styling when most other revolvers had simply cylindrical barrels, and it always had a reputaton for good rifling.
I agree that the vented rib on the barrel is "cool." It certainly gave the Python at unique look.

As I recall, the Python has a tighter bore diameter of .355" vs .357" for the Smith & Wesson. Some claim that this made it more accurate. Mine is a tack driver with 38 Special semi-wadcutter handloads.