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gringop wrote:...what are you going to do when the bad guy is at 15 yards instead of 1 yard? Run closer? Run away? Get a different gun? Empty the cylinder while point shooting and not worrying about the sight picture?

Maybe I was not perzactly clear - IF distance and time are available, then the locked arm is your 'point and shoot' - the target just falls (raises?) in front of the gun silhouette. Doesn't matter as to how far - it just naturally finds the target (obtaining sights can be a problem for old myopic eyes). I thought the OP was trying for less than MOA shots and couldn't see the sights - silly me! Would I run away? You bet - if I can do so safely. Would I get another gun? Absolutely if available. Would I empty the gun? Maybe - at least until the threat was over anyway. But worrying about sight picture?? I don't. I can hit a paper plate with multiple rounds from low ready or draw at 15 yards. I might send one onto the cardboard backer occasionally as well at 15 and 25 yards. Probably under stress I might miss some all together. My comment had to do with getting all wound up on obtaining sights and getting tiny groups. Again - IF you use proper technique with small short barrel handguns (remember, some firearms have only a 'sight' channel and little if nothing else), the obtaining sights thing for longer shots is overcome by a natural ability. If someone is seriously concerned about a snubs (or other small pocket handgun) ability to hit a target that is a threat at 15 or even 25 yards, then get a longer barrel weapon.

gringop wrote:Every self-defense firearms class that I have attended emphasized putting multiple hits in the upper chest of an attacker to stop them, no matter what the distance. It may require a little less precision to do this at 5 yards than at 20 yards, but the shots still need to hit a 10" triangle in the upper chest. This is possible with a snubby if you USE YOUR SIGHTS.

Yep - enough rounds to a vital area to stop the threat. If you can place rounds in a paper plate (see above) at 15, 20, 25 yards, that criteria is satisfied. It is also possible to do it by obtaining a sight 'picture' that does not use a mindset locked in on focusing on where the front (and rear) sight posts are located, what color are they, and if aligned properly, before taking that first shot to stop some crack crazed jihadist ninja from crossing that 21 foot threshold and kicking your butt... (sorry for the editorializing there - but I was just rolling...)!!

Jes MHO!!

gringop wrote:

couzin wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:Mrs. Oldfringo's S&W 638 has a 1-7/8" barrel and that in itself is not good conducive to long range varmint shooting. Her revolver is an up close, and personal, point and shoot defensive weapon.

Ditto - a snub is up close and personal, don't worry about sight picture or one inch groups at 25 yards - just learn to make the most effective use of these firearms as they were intended to be used. Goto http://www.snubnose.info/docs/Theory.htm.

With all due respect, what are you going to do when the bad guy is at 15 yards instead of 1 yard? Run closer? Run away? Get a different gun? Empty the cylinder while point shooting and not worrying about the sight picture?

Every self-defense firearms class that I have attended emphasized putting multiple hits in the upper chest of an attacker to stop them, no matter what the distance. It may require a little less precision to do this at 5 yards than at 20 yards, but the shots still need to hit a 10" triangle in the upper chest. This is possible with a snubby if you USE YOUR SIGHTS.

Kudos to the OP for trying to improve his snubby sights. Look at this link for some good info from Claude Werner, a noted instructor.
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/a ... bull-sights/

Gringop

ALL handguns are meant to be up close and personal. If you want long range accuracy, get a rifle. Yes, running away IS an option. Shooting should be, as Ayoob puts it, "In The Gravest Extreme."

hangfour wrote:Thanks everyone for the great tips. I went to the range today and shot my 38 special with the 'stock' sights. From 7 yards the shots were within a four inch radius pattern just a wee bit to the right of the bulls eye (probably due to my trigger pull because when I shoot it single action the pattern moves to the left over the bulls eye).

On the way home I stopped by a local hobby shop and bought some bright orange (Testors) paint ... it's now (after cleaning the gun) on the front sight drying. Thanks for the tips about the masking tape and the wonderful article:
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/Theory.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I clearly need to practice more with my 38 special and I bet I'll feel comfortable carrying it without putting after-market sights on it.

XS Sight makes their BD for the J-frame S&W similar in appearance to those found on the SW340PD (I think) and the new version of the Ruger LCR. Those with the pinned front sight is apparently easy to change and the others, like mine, which aren't pinned, they are working on a procedure to mount their sight on those as well with a little gunsmithing.

Interesting diverse viewpoints. I practice sighting @ 15 yards with the Airlite snubbie, and I practice point and fire @ 5-7 yards, too. Interestingly, a friend of mine prefers sighting the snubbie @ 15 yards over my full size all metal revolver, while I prefer firing the larger heavier one. To each his own. Just hope whichever one I have on hand does the job if ever needed in defense, whether it be at 5 yards or 15 yards. If the threat is more than 15 yards, I am probably running away, anyhow, unless my arthitic wife is standing there unable to move.

TX CHL 1997
CO CHP 2005

I'm going to go in a different direction than you guys. I'm going back to instinctive shooting, I did this with my bow and could shoot varmints even at night. When I was in West Texas many years ago we would shoot running rabbits as far out as 100 yars. Now this was with 22's. I did take my 38 out one night but didn't get a hit. I did hit very close. With my older eyes I think this will help me. What do you guys think?

I have an illustration of your difficulty here:


These are both snubbies in .357 that I own. The top one is a Model 640. The bottom one is a M&P340. Both guns have a rear notch cut in the top strap, and a front sight pinned to the top of the barrel. The top one has a non-contrasting stainless steel front sight that is the same color as the rear notch. The bottom one has a Trijicon tritium front sight that is a big round white dot framed in a black U-notch. The first pistol's sights aren't abysmal, but they're not that good either. The second pistol's sights are superb and easily the equal of any of the night sights on any of my other carry pistols. They even work well in broad daylight.

Now, on your Airweight, a black front sight with a big white dot on its face that glows in the dark might be enough contrast to improve your sight picture considerably. I would imagine that this front sight can be obtained from either S&W, or from any Trijicon distributor.

Two other pictures which show the front sight contrast, somewhat:




I'll try to take a better picture with a close up of the sights and PM it to you.

Should anyone be interested, at Midway you can get a phosphorescent paint kit for less than $10.00, product no. 176851. While it will not glow unless exposed to bright light for a bit first, it is white when not glowing. So it will not be glowing when quickly drawn at night, except that on some snubbies, and for some shooters, the front sight being white is arguably better than nothing.

Elmo

These are both snubbies in .357 that I own. The top one is a Model 640. The bottom one is a M&P340. Both guns have a rear notch cut in the top strap, and a front sight pinned to the top of the barrel. The top one has a non-contrasting stainless steel front sight that is the same color as the rear notch. The bottom one has a Trijicon tritium front sight that is a big round white dot framed in a black U-notch. The first pistol's sights aren't abysmal, but they're not that good either. The second pistol's sights are superb and easily the equal of any of the night sights on any of my other carry pistols. They even work well in broad daylight.

Yes, I agree the second pistol's sights are primo ... I've painted the rear sight black and the front sight orange but it is still not quite what I would ideally like. I'll try shooting it (not for accuracy but for sight picture) on monday (Labor day). If that does not feel comfortable I'll try to find a solution something like your M&P340. Thanks "Annoyed Man" for the helpful pictures.

Jim Lockey wrote:I'm going to go in a different direction than you guys. I'm going back to instinctive shooting, I did this with my bow and could shoot varmints even at night. When I was in West Texas many years ago we would shoot running rabbits as far out as 100 yars. Now this was with 22's. I did take my 38 out one night but didn't get a hit. I did hit very close. With my older eyes I think this will help me. What do you guys think?

If by "instinctive shooting" you mean focusing your vision on a point on the target, bringing the gun to eye level, and essentially "looking over" the gun without focusing on the sights, it is a viable technique for close range shooting if practiced extensively to the point that it is utterly reliable .

Well, what's close range?

A practical definition would be out to the furthest distance where you can keep all your shots on a paper dinner plate 95% of the time when you draw and fire two rounds from a concealed holster in under 2 seconds, because that's about the maximum time you'll have to defend yourself from sudden attack if you need to. If you can reliably do this at 10 feet and closer you're doing just fine.

Performance is key here. If you can't consistently perform with it, either you need to devote more effort to developing the technique, or it doesn't work for you and is not a good way to go.

You also need the discipline not to try to use that technique beyond the distance where you have established it as reliable. If you do, you'll likely be dealing with the consequences of rounds placed on unintended targets.

You should still practice sighted fire beyond that distance to consistently place rounds in the same paper plate target, but the time frame can be expanded by half - 3 seconds.

If "Older Eyes Syndrome" is the reason you're considering this, you might look into installing a set of Express Sight Systems Big Dot Sights. They've worked for a lot of folks who aren't 18 any more.

Finding your sight in low light or at night is the main problem. You are correct that we don't have much time to protect ourself. That is one of the reason I carrry my LCR as opposed to my PPKS. I'm left handed and it is awkward to flip my safety with my automatic.

Jim Lockey wrote:Finding your sight in low light or at night is the main problem. You are correct that we don't have much time to protect ourself. That is one of the reason I carrry my LCR as opposed to my PPKS. I'm left handed and it is awkward to flip my safety with my automatic.

XS Sight Systems makes a version of the Big Dot with a tritium vial inside a bright white ring. You can't miss seeing it day or night.

I have a crimson trace grip on my little 642 revolver. I do practice with the sights, but also with the laser. I have to say, I can hit the bulls eye at 25 yards with the laser, but not with the sights very well. I would like to try painting them as discussed here, but when my life depends on it and I have only 5 shots, I do like the way that red dot marks the spot.