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Thanks. I will have to check my loaded mags out.

Yea now you got my mind going. I may just have to get a Berretta "Dude shooter" as my bedside friend

I just did a google search on the issue of shell deformation. Apparently it only happens to the top shell when you leave a fully loaded mag in the gun with the bolt closed for as little as two weeks. And it is worse with buckshot than with slugs.

There are several possible solutions. One, leave a fully loaded mag in the gun but leave the bolt open. Two, keep the fully loaded mag out of the gun until needed, then load and shoot. (This is what I have been doing anyway with my Saiga 12). Three, download the mag by one shell. Four, use a slug as the top shell. Slugs apparently do not deform. Or five, shave the bolt. (Frankly I don't understand this one, either how to do it or what it does. I would leave this to a gunsmith).

So while this is an issue, there are some pretty easy solutiong to the problem.

Quiet I need a reason to buy a Beretta

Bob Wolff wrote:Here i$ the "ultimate" conver$ion
http://www.randrtargets.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow, fun video. That CoF starting at 2:02 looks like lots of fun, 2 clay birds in the middle of a course of steel!

Nice guns... then again, they're also $3000+ Saigas.

NcongruNt wrote:

Bob Wolff wrote:Here i$ the "ultimate" conver$ion
http://www.randrtargets.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow, fun video. That CoF starting at 2:02 looks like lots of fun, 2 clay birds in the middle of a course of steel!

Nice guns... then again, they're also $3000+ Saigas.

We had a CoF like that at last month's 3-gun match at the Best of the West Range in Liberty Hill -- a real blast! While those souped up Saiga's look pretty, you don't have to drop over $3000 to get that performance. A "low brass" kit is about $65, stock/trigger kit is about $200, Surefire magwell is $100, muzzle brake is $80, extended mag release is $30. Presto: Competition Saiga for about $1100, including the price of the Saiga.

Cheaper than a mid-grade AR

OldCannon - Did you ever get your Kushnapup??

MedicMan218 wrote:OldCannon - Did you ever get your Kushnapup??

Not yet, still waiting

OldCannon wrote:

MedicMan218 wrote:OldCannon - Did you ever get your Kushnapup??

Not yet, still waiting

That sucks.
Please keep up posted.
I'm cautiously optimistic and still a little skeptical about this for my unconverted 7.62.
I just hope they are of a decent quality. I like the idea of it but I'm just a little concerned with a company that took your money over a year ago and has yet to deliver for whatever reason.

MedicMan218 wrote:

OldCannon wrote:

MedicMan218 wrote:OldCannon - Did you ever get your Kushnapup??

Not yet, still waiting

That sucks.
Please keep up posted.
I'm cautiously optimistic and still a little skeptical about this for my unconverted 7.62.
I just hope they are of a decent quality. I like the idea of it but I'm just a little concerned with a company that took your money over a year ago and has yet to deliver for whatever reason.

I was aware it was risked money when I made the purchase. I got email from the business owner today saying "real soon". He did specifically say, "Production is in it's final process." Take that for what it's worth

I really hope it's not vaporware, a lot of folks sunk cash into the preorder. It certainly seems like the S12 has had to endure a lot of the dreaded "pre-order" limbo. A group of guys sunk some serious coin into the version 030's that a small company was supposedly importing, and it doesnt look like its panning out to well. At least there are a number of companies making high quality parts already - the more the merrier though!

Im personally looking forward to the MD Arms doublestack mags, though no one has heard anything about them in a LONG time. At this point, they are more vaporware than anything else in the S12 market, though at least there wasnt a pre-order or anything.

Hope the Kushnapup thing works out though.

OldCannon wrote:

MedicMan218 wrote:OldCannon - Did you ever get your Kushnapup??

Not yet, still waiting

I ordered one too back in early 2011 and I have lost faith. I knew it was a risk at the time, but I have been a small business owner and like to support little guys with big ideas. I will be surprised if I get anything, and if I do, I expect it to be junk. These guys made the fatal flaw of not having startup cash, and tried to fund the project through pre-orders. I have personally been involved in enough business ventures to know that is a sure fire recipe for disaster. Hopefully I am wrong, because I am still rooting for them.

OldCannon wrote:Back on the topic of pre-loaded magazines: Unless you run full-length brass shotshells, you're seriously asking for trouble by keeping a Saiga magazine pre-loaded. The plastic casing on shotshells and the mag spring pressure will deform the plastic over time, and you will end up with a magazine full of shotshells that won't load or cycle. Probably the opposite of what people want to happen in an emergency situation. It's not easy finding preloaded full-brass shotshells either - you'll have to do your own reloading if you want to go to that extreme (and reloading full brass is different from standard shotshells).

Not at all what I've experienced. With a magazine inserted against a closed bolt, for weeks, I've found shell deformation to vary from negligible (with no impact on cycling) to severe, depending on the manufacturer. For instance, with 2.75 Remington 00 Buck, I've seen negligible deformation against a closed bolt, but with supposed "military" 00 Buck, the shell pushing against the bolt was deformed to the point that the shell was unusable. I have yet to find any shells deformed from merely sitting in a magazine.

stroo wrote:I just did a google search on the issue of shell deformation. Apparently it only happens to the top shell when you leave a fully loaded mag in the gun with the bolt closed for as little as two weeks. And it is worse with buckshot than with slugs.

There are several possible solutions. One, leave a fully loaded mag in the gun but leave the bolt open. Two, keep the fully loaded mag out of the gun until needed, then load and shoot. (This is what I have been doing anyway with my Saiga 12). Three, download the mag by one shell. Four, use a slug as the top shell. Slugs apparently do not deform. Or five, shave the bolt. (Frankly I don't understand this one, either how to do it or what it does. I would leave this to a gunsmith).

So while this is an issue, there are some pretty easy solutiong to the problem.

I find no significant deformation against a closed bolt with Remington 2.75 slugs and insignificant deformation against a closed bolt (meaning deformation is visible but the shell will cycle with no problem) with Remington 00 Buck. The Winchester shells seem to deform more. I haven't experimented with 3"shells but I suspect the deformation may be greater due to the shape of the bolt where it will press against that last quarter inch of shell. I got some supposed "military" 00 Buck the other day and when I checked after a couple of days the top round was deformed beyond use. This appears to be due to a thinner and less stout plastic case. I haven't seen any significant deformation of shells in an uninserted magazine or any but the first shell in a magazine inserted against a closed bolt.