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If you had squib, and fire a second shot while the squib is still lodged in the barrel, you end up in a destroyed pistol. Avoiding injury depends on the quality of the destroyed pistol.

Beiruty wrote:If you had squib, and fire a second shot while the squib is still lodged in the barrel, you end up in a destroyed pistol. Avoiding injury depends on the quality of the destroyed pistol.

Right, that's a full double feed. The first round has to be completely inside the barrel and the second round completely chambered with the slide all the way home. The round has to be pretty far out of spec (or the wrong caliber) for that to happen - or at least thats what I thought. It didn't sound like that was what Excaliber was describing - so thats why I asked.

terryg wrote:

Beiruty wrote:If you had squib, and fire a second shot while the squib is still lodged in the barrel, you end up in a destroyed pistol. Avoiding injury depends on the quality of the destroyed pistol.

Right, that's a full double feed. The first round has to be completely inside the barrel and the second round completely chambered with the slide all the way home. The round has to be pretty far out of spec (or the wrong caliber) for that to happen - or at least thats what I thought. It didn't sound like that was what Excaliber was describing - so thats why I asked.

A double feed occurs when a cartridge or casing in the chamber fails to extract and the moving slide tries to load another one behind it, thus tying up the gun. That's not what occurred in the incident I referred to.

Here's what happened:

My daughter and I were at the range together. I supplied the newly purchased Tula 9mm ammo for her first time out with her new Kahr PM9. About halfway through the second or third magazine, she asked me to look at her gun because her last shot didn't sound right, didn't produce the normal recoil, and she saw a puff of smoke come out of the ejection port.

I retracted the slide and ejected a spent shell which had not extracted and ejected. I field stripped the gun and looked into the barrel, where I found the projectile lodged a very short distance forward of the chamber. I was not able to dislodge it with the tools in my range bag. It took about 10 minutes of work by the range's gunsmith to get the round out.

Because the projectile had lodged forward of the chamber, if the slide had been cycled without examining the barrel for obstruction, the empty casing would have ejected and a new loaded cartridge would have chambered. The slide would have fully closed in battery, and pulling the trigger would have fired that round. That projectile would have had no place to go, and neither would the expanding gases from the burning propellant. The result would have been catastrophic consequences for the gun and a very high risk of personal injury to the shooter with this polymer framed gun.

Excaliber wrote:A double feed occurs when a cartridge or casing in the chamber fails to extract and the moving slide tries to load another one behind it, thus tying up the gun. That's not what occurred in the incident I referred to.

Here's what happened:

My daughter and I were at the range together. I supplied the newly purchased Tula 9mm ammo for her first time out with her new Kahr PM9. About halfway through the second or third magazine, she asked me to look at her gun because her last shot didn't sound right, didn't produce the normal recoil, and she saw a puff of smoke come out of the ejection port.

I retracted the slide and ejected a spent shell which had not extracted and ejected. I field stripped the gun and looked into the barrel, where I found the projectile lodged a very short distance forward of the chamber. I was not able to dislodge it with the tools in my range bag. It took about 10 minutes of work by the range's gunsmith to get the round out.

Because the projectile had lodged forward of the chamber, if the slide had been cycled without examining the barrel for obstruction, the empty casing would have ejected and a new loaded cartridge would have chambered. The slide would have fully closed in battery, and pulling the trigger would have fired that round. That projectile would have had no place to go, and neither would the expanding gases from the burning propellant. The result would have been catastrophic consequences for the gun and a very high risk of personal injury to the shooter with this polymer framed gun.

Ok, thanks for the clarification and sorry for the confusion. What you described above is what I was reffering to as a full double feed. That is, I guess, not the correct terminology although it seems like it should be. A typical double feed results in the slide not closing all of the way because the new round cannot chamber. If, however, the slide is able to successfully close and push the first round (or shell) into the chamber enough for the new round to chamber, I thought that was a full double feed - and can be indeed quite dangerous.

terryg wrote:

Excaliber wrote:A double feed occurs when a cartridge or casing in the chamber fails to extract and the moving slide tries to load another one behind it, thus tying up the gun. That's not what occurred in the incident I referred to.

Here's what happened:

My daughter and I were at the range together. I supplied the newly purchased Tula 9mm ammo for her first time out with her new Kahr PM9. About halfway through the second or third magazine, she asked me to look at her gun because her last shot didn't sound right, didn't produce the normal recoil, and she saw a puff of smoke come out of the ejection port.

I retracted the slide and ejected a spent shell which had not extracted and ejected. I field stripped the gun and looked into the barrel, where I found the projectile lodged a very short distance forward of the chamber. I was not able to dislodge it with the tools in my range bag. It took about 10 minutes of work by the range's gunsmith to get the round out.

Because the projectile had lodged forward of the chamber, if the slide had been cycled without examining the barrel for obstruction, the empty casing would have ejected and a new loaded cartridge would have chambered. The slide would have fully closed in battery, and pulling the trigger would have fired that round. That projectile would have had no place to go, and neither would the expanding gases from the burning propellant. The result would have been catastrophic consequences for the gun and a very high risk of personal injury to the shooter with this polymer framed gun.

Ok, thanks for the clarification and sorry for the confusion. What you described above is what I was reffering to as a full double feed. That is, I guess, not the correct terminology although it seems like it should be. A typical double feed results in the slide not closing all of the way because the new round cannot chamber. If, however, the slide is able to successfully close and push the first round (or shell) into the chamber enough for the new round to chamber, I thought that was a full double feed - and can be indeed quite dangerous.

A second round driven by the slide into a cartridge or empty casing already in the chamber can't drive the first casing into the barrel because of the way the chamber and barrel are bored. If you look into the chamber from the back end, you'll see a shoulder at the forward end that acts as a stop for the casing. The dimensions of the barrel are also too small to allow the casing to enter.

There's no such thing as a partial double feed. It's an "it is or it isn't" situation. A double feed situation has a cartridge or shell in the chamber or partially extracted and a new round jammed between the first round or casing and the slide behind it.

Clint Smith's excellent short video on clearing pistol malfunctions is here. The double feed is the third type of malfunction he addresses.

A projectile lodged in the bore ahead of the chamber will leave the chamber clear for a new round when the slide is retracted to extract and eject the first casing. This is a normal single feed situation with an obstructed bore - a total gun stoppage that requires tools to fix, and a disaster if the second cartridge is fired.

Excaliber wrote:A second round driven by the slide into a cartridge or empty casing already in the chamber can't drive the first casing into the barrel because of the way the chamber and barrel are bored. If you look into the chamber from the back end, you'll see a shoulder at the forward end that acts as a stop for the casing. The dimensions of the barrel are also too small to allow the casing to enter.

There's no such thing as a partial double feed. It's an "it is or it isn't" situation. A double feed situation has a cartridge or shell in the chamber or partially extracted and a new round jammed between the first round or casing and the slide behind it.

Clint Smith's excellent short video on clearing pistol malfunctions is here. The double feed is the third type of malfunction he addresses.

A projectile lodged in the bore ahead of the chamber will leave the chamber clear for a new round when the slide is retracted to extract and eject the first casing. This is a normal single feed situation with an obstructed bore - a total gun stoppage that requires tools to fix, and a disaster if the second cartridge is fired.

Ahh, your right - I'm sorry. The problem wasn't that the shell didn't fully extract - it was that the projectile did not leave the barrel. I was confusing this barrel obstruction with ones caused by loading the wrong caliber round - which does cause the entire shell to be pushed further into the barrel. Which is why I stated:

terryg wrote:The round has to be pretty far out of spec (or the wrong caliber) for that to happen

Again, sorry for the confusion ...

terryg wrote:

Excaliber wrote:A second round driven by the slide into a cartridge or empty casing already in the chamber can't drive the first casing into the barrel because of the way the chamber and barrel are bored. If you look into the chamber from the back end, you'll see a shoulder at the forward end that acts as a stop for the casing. The dimensions of the barrel are also too small to allow the casing to enter.

There's no such thing as a partial double feed. It's an "it is or it isn't" situation. A double feed situation has a cartridge or shell in the chamber or partially extracted and a new round jammed between the first round or casing and the slide behind it.

Clint Smith's excellent short video on clearing pistol malfunctions is here. The double feed is the third type of malfunction he addresses.

A projectile lodged in the bore ahead of the chamber will leave the chamber clear for a new round when the slide is retracted to extract and eject the first casing. This is a normal single feed situation with an obstructed bore - a total gun stoppage that requires tools to fix, and a disaster if the second cartridge is fired.

Ahh, your right - I'm sorry. The problem wasn't that the shell didn't fully extract - it was that the projectile did not leave the barrel. I was confusing this barrel obstruction with ones caused by loading the wrong caliber round - which does cause the entire shell to be pushed further into the barrel. Which is why I stated:

terryg wrote:The round has to be pretty far out of spec (or the wrong caliber) for that to happen

Again, sorry for the confusion ...

You're right that a small enough cartridge or casing that wasn't ejected could theoretically be driven into the barrel by loading a following round if a shooter didn't investigate a discharge or fail to fire anomaly.

I have accidentally loaded and fired a .40S&W round in a .45. It drove the projectile out of the bore with anomalies in recoil and sound signature that caused me to investigate. The extractor did grip the visibly bulged shell and eject it successfully. If a smaller cartridge, say a 9mm, were involved, it wouldn't be gripped by the feed lips of the magazine and wouldn't load into or from the magazine at all.

There may be some gun / cartridge combination where an entire cartridge could become a barrel obstruction. FWIW I've never seen it happen, but I wouldn't be comfortable saying it couldn't happen either.

In this case it is worse and more dangerous

Excaliber wrote:...
I've fired many thousands of rounds of Wolf ammo with nothing even close to this experience. ....

The squib load could have been a one in a trillion anomaly, but it was the end of Tula ammo for me.

My understanding is that Wolf Ammo, at least some of it, is also made at the Tula plant. I don't know if Tula-branded ammo is manufactured differently than Wolf-branded ammo...

Excaliber wrote: There may be some gun / cartridge combination where an entire cartridge could become a barrel obstruction. FWIW I've never seen it happen, but I wouldn't be comfortable saying it couldn't happen either.

I've read a report of it happening. I don't know for sure if it was here or not. But I know I read a report because that is what I was thinking of that got me confused. I'm on my phone right now, so can't really search.

ELB wrote:

Excaliber wrote:...
I've fired many thousands of rounds of Wolf ammo with nothing even close to this experience. ....

The squib load could have been a one in a trillion anomaly, but it was the end of Tula ammo for me.

My understanding is that Wolf Ammo, at least some of it, is also made at the Tula plant. I don't know if Tula-branded ammo is manufactured differently than Wolf-branded ammo...

That information is why I bought the Tula product. I've been very happy with Wolf ammo over the years. However, the Tula cartridges don't look as well made to me, and the packaging is junk. I know you don't shoot packages, but it does indicate what the manufacturer thinks of the product.

I may be called judgmental, unforgiving, etc. and that may all be true - but my personal verdict is Tula doesn't go in any of my guns ever again.