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Excaliber wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

KC5AV wrote:

Excaliber wrote:single frontstrap mounted switch option..

Wow, that seems like a spectacularly bad design.

In and of itself, I don't agree. The same switch location is used on the best Crimson Trace laser grips and other similar devices with no documented issues that I am aware of. These devices are intended to be activated by a firm grip on the handgun which does not include movement of the trigger finger.

I suspect that some combination of violations of Rules 1 and 3 and the symmetrical hand clench phenomenon are bigger factors here.

It appeared to me it was designed such that you squeeze with the trigger finger to fire, or the middle finger to turn on the light.

That's exactly correct.

However, if one's finger is on the trigger or alongside the trigger guard instead of the frame to begin with, deliberately clenching the hand to turn on the light under the stress of an arrest struggle may cause involuntary movement of the trigger finger as well.

Yeah, I wasn't really commenting about the involuntary movement. If he is doing as trained, the trigger finger will not be on the trigger anyway, when trying to turn on the light. I was thinking that when the time came to turn on the light under stress, the more natural movement (and more trained movement) would be to put the trigger finger on the trigger and pull, rather than pulling with the middle finger. Thus it is a MISTAKEN movement, not an involuntary one. His BRAIN would tell his hand to use the wrong finger, because that is the more natural and trained response. An involuntary "clench" would have no negative effect as long as his finger's not on the trigger. A mistaken "command" to the wrong finger would have disastrous effect even if the finger wasn't on the trigger at the time.

Make sense?

sjfcontrol wrote:Yeah, I wasn't really commenting about the involuntary movement. If he is doing as trained, the trigger finger will not be on the trigger anyway, when trying to turn on the light. I was thinking that when the time came to turn on the light under stress, the more natural movement (and more trained movement) would be to put the trigger finger on the trigger and pull, rather than pulling with the middle finger. Thus it is a MISTAKEN movement, not an involuntary one. His BRAIN would tell his hand to use the wrong finger, because that is the more natural and trained response. An involuntary "clench" would have no negative effect as long as his finger's not on the trigger. A mistaken "command" to the wrong finger would have disastrous effect even if the finger wasn't on the trigger at the time.

Make sense?

A hand clench that occurs when the trigger finger is alongside the trigger guard (as was taught some years ago) can cause the trigger finger to enter the trigger guard and pull the trigger.

However, the possibility you suggest does make sense and is among the plausible possibilities which have by no means been exhausted in our discussion so far. If that was what happened, it would make this case even more similar to the California incident.

The requirement to use the hand and finger movement that has been extensively trained to do one thing to execute a very similar movement to achieve a very different result with little training behind that second task certainly poses risks when the tool involved is a firearm.

Excaliber wrote:

gigag04 wrote:This is sad for all involved.


All the training I have recieved says that a gun light is a supplement for a handheld light. When I clear a bldg, or need to illuminate someone, I use my small streamlight, even of my weapon is drawn. Also only use my non trigger hand to activate the light (TLR-1s).

We had an email sent out about it from the train/rec dept re-emphasizing
this.

This is a far more sound practice.

When the light is mounted on the gun, there is a very strong temptation to use the gun as an illumination tool even when pointing a gun is not warranted. Sooner or later this results in the gun being pointed at things and people when there is no good reason to do so, thus inviting tragedy.

There are some situations where a light mounted gun make sense (e.g. high risk situation special response entry team), but using such a tool requires real discipline to properly manage its use under the less than ideal field conditions officers face every day.

Agree 100%. The light is there *if* I should need it in case of injury or hands being tied up. We have to complete use of force paperwork whenever we point a firearm at someone. This is where keeping the weapon at low ready comes into practice. If the suspect is an unknown threat, a weapon at the low ready will suffice.

gigag04 wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

gigag04 wrote:This is sad for all involved.


All the training I have recieved says that a gun light is a supplement for a handheld light. When I clear a bldg, or need to illuminate someone, I use my small streamlight, even of my weapon is drawn. Also only use my non trigger hand to activate the light (TLR-1s).

We had an email sent out about it from the train/rec dept re-emphasizing
this.

This is a far more sound practice.

When the light is mounted on the gun, there is a very strong temptation to use the gun as an illumination tool even when pointing a gun is not warranted. Sooner or later this results in the gun being pointed at things and people when there is no good reason to do so, thus inviting tragedy.

There are some situations where a light mounted gun make sense (e.g. high risk situation special response entry team), but using such a tool requires real discipline to properly manage its use under the less than ideal field conditions officers face every day.

Agree 100%. The light is there *if* I should need it in case of injury or hands being tied up. We have to complete use of force paperwork whenever we point a firearm at someone. This is where keeping the weapon at low ready comes into practice. If the suspect is an unknown threat, a weapon at the low ready will suffice.

Excellent policy and practice.

You work for a well led agency.

Excaliber wrote:
The requirement to use the hand and finger movement that has been extensively trained to do one thing to execute a very similar movement to achieve a very different result with little training behind that second task certainly poses risks when the tool involved is a firearm.

Yes. And I just wanted to add, that this effect would be exacerbated when the user is under stress.

The two-handed room sweep motion places the gun in the COM - your COM. why would you want to light up the BG's target with a gun mounted beacon?

BTW, IANAL or a LEO or a Batman aspirant. I'm just an older guy trying to get along with everybody (well, almost everybody) and live out my days in harmony with nature and my SA 1911 LW Compact.

Oldgringo wrote:The two-handed room sweep motion places the gun in the COM - your COM. why would you want to light up the BG's target with a gun mounted beacon?

BTW, IANAL or a LEO or a Batman aspirant. I'm just an older guy trying to get along with everybody (well, almost everybody) and live out my days in harmony with nature and my SA 1911 LW Compact.

There are differing schools of thought on this.

I don't personally believe that a street wise bad guy is going to buy that he's being approached by an 8 foot tall cop holding a flashlight in front of him when an officer uses the "high and to the left" light technique. He's going to do what they teach in prison: Aim 2 1/2 feet below and 18 inches to the left of the oncoming light.

It's also physically quite difficult to coordinate using a flashlight high and off to one side of the body and shooting with the other hand. Try it some time in a force on force situation to get the feel for just how much fun this is.

I go with the "simpler is better" theory, and usually use the Harries technique with the light held parallel to the gun barrel in combination with a "flick on / shoot if needed / move quick" method. It works for me and the "non syringe" type SureFire lights I usually carry.

Your choice of flashlight will also place some limitations on the available techniques. The link above also illustrates some of the other options some folks use. Note that some techniques work best with tailcap activated lights like the Sure-Fires, and others work best with lights that have the switch on the barrel just behind the head like the Mag Lites.

Excaliber wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:The two-handed room sweep motion places the gun in the COM - your COM. why would you want to light up the BG's target with a gun mounted beacon?

BTW, IANAL or a LEO or a Batman aspirant. I'm just an older guy trying to get along with everybody (well, almost everybody) and live out my days in harmony with nature and my SA 1911 LW Compact.

There are differing schools of thought on this.

I don't personally believe that a street wise bad guy is going to buy that he's being approached by an 8 foot tall cop holding a flashlight in front of him when an officer uses the "high and to the left" light technique. He's going to do what they teach in prison: Aim 2 1/2 feet below and 18 inches to the left of the oncoming light.

It's also physically quite difficult to coordinate using a flashlight high and off to one side of the body and shooting with the other hand. Try it some time in a force on force situation to get the feel for just how much fun this is.

I go with the "simpler is better" theory, and usually use the Harries technique with the light held parallel to the gun barrel in combination with a "flick on / shoot if needed / move quick" method. It works for me and the "non syringe" type SureFire lights I usually carry.

Your choice of flashlight will also place some limitations on the available techniques. The link above also illustrates some of the other options some folks use. Note that some techniques work best with tailcap activated lights like the Sure-Fires, and others work best with lights that have the switch on the barrel just behind the head like the Mag Lites.

I will most certainly defer to your training and experience.

Me, I'm headin' to the 'high lonesome' when the lead starts flyin'...if not sooner.

Oldgringo wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:The two-handed room sweep motion places the gun in the COM - your COM. why would you want to light up the BG's target with a gun mounted beacon?

BTW, IANAL or a LEO or a Batman aspirant. I'm just an older guy trying to get along with everybody (well, almost everybody) and live out my days in harmony with nature and my SA 1911 LW Compact.

There are differing schools of thought on this.

I don't personally believe that a street wise bad guy is going to buy that he's being approached by an 8 foot tall cop holding a flashlight in front of him when an officer uses the "high and to the left" light technique. He's going to do what they teach in prison: Aim 2 1/2 feet below and 18 inches to the left of the oncoming light.

It's also physically quite difficult to coordinate using a flashlight high and off to one side of the body and shooting with the other hand. Try it some time in a force on force situation to get the feel for just how much fun this is.

I go with the "simpler is better" theory, and usually use the Harries technique with the light held parallel to the gun barrel in combination with a "flick on / shoot if needed / move quick" method. It works for me and the "non syringe" type SureFire lights I usually carry.

Your choice of flashlight will also place some limitations on the available techniques. The link above also illustrates some of the other options some folks use. Note that some techniques work best with tailcap activated lights like the Sure-Fires, and others work best with lights that have the switch on the barrel just behind the head like the Mag Lites.

I will most certainly defer to your training and experience.

Me, I'm headin' to the 'high lonesome' when the lead starts flyin'...if not sooner.

Good call.

Except for LEO's who get sent to fix the problem, that's generally the best choice - when it's available!

He should get the same penalty as a citizen that "accidentally" shoots a cop. Equal protection and all that.

I think I saw on the news tonight he will not be prosecuted but may face discipline from his department.
It seems to me the department's choice of that light design was rather stupid and at least partly to blame for this officer's unintentional shooting of a suspect. I hope the department rethinks that particular piece of equipment.

Excaliber wrote:I don't personally believe that a street wise bad guy is going to buy that he's being approached by an 8 foot tall cop holding a flashlight in front of him when an officer uses the "high and to the left" light technique. He's going to do what they teach in prison: Aim 2 1/2 feet below and 18 inches to the left of the oncoming light.

I'd not heard this before (unsurprisingly, never having been in prison) but my first thought (being a southpaw) is that received "wisdom" like this might put left-handed officers at an advantage, as their COM would be 3 feet away from the bad guy's POA. I wonder whether there are any statistics, or even anecdotal evidence, to support this supposition.

gigag04 wrote:This is sad for all involved.


All the training I have recieved says that a gun light is a supplement for a handheld light. When I clear a bldg, or need to illuminate someone, I use my small streamlight, even of my weapon is drawn. Also only use my non trigger hand to activate the light (TLR-1s).


We had an email sent out about it from the train/rec dept re-emphasizing
this.

Thank you, this is important information, particularly on how to use the gun light. I had not considered the gun light as the backup; the "TV trainers" seem to always consider it as the primary. The rationale for your training is (unfortunately) quite clear now.

Excaliber wrote:Here we have a newly issued piece of equipment that requires a different mode of operation from similar gear the officer was much more familiar with, and a light activation switch that is turned on with rearward pressure applied just under the trigger guard. This switch is designed to be activated by the middle finger on the frontstrap.

My immediate reaction to this is what boneheaded idiot would think this was a good idea? Require the officer to use the exact same movement of his finger in the vicinity of the trigger to activate his light and expect the officer, under the stress of an encounter, to be able to properly perform the action every time? This is a recipe for failure, as this officer has discovered.

I thought we were so thoroughly modern these days that we employed engineers to anticipate and obviate problems like this. Sheesh.

Bart wrote:He should get the same penalty as a citizen that "accidentally" shoots a cop. Equal protection and all that.

Normally I would agree with you. In this case, the officer was issued new equipment (and one would hope got some training on it) that put him at a much higher risk of a ND. Holding him entirely responsible for the outcome strikes me as a bit unfair. I want to know what kind of and how much training he received on the use of the light and its activation. I would want to investigate how many other NDs have occurred for officers using this particular light configuration. ISTM that the decision of the Plano PD to purchase and issue these lights as well as the configuration of the switch placed this officer in a difficult position where trying to do his job resulted in a tragedy. Whether he gets convicted of something or not, he will live with this fateful day for the rest of his life.