OC v. CC -- Hatfields v. McCoys All Over Again

[Purplehood]

Wow - I'm famous. :)

I want constitutional carry. Period.

Why are we - as voters afraid of anything (referring to more 30.06 postings)? has it actually come to that? We're "afraid" of politicians? We're "afraid" of corporations? I'd much rather have my constitutional rights firmly in hand than worry about a few signs. Once we get constitutional carry, we can then take care of the signs. Once we have constitutional carry, copanies can't make us sign an agreement (company employee manual/policy manual) that forces us to relinquish our rights (disallowing us from keeping our guns in our cars). Once we have constitutional carry, it would be easier to achieve campus carry 9at least for institutions that rely on state/federal funding).

Constitutional carry is working for Ariozona, Vermont, and Alaska. I see no reason why it won't work here in Texas as well.

And, as human s are prone to do, it's easy to say "if you ain't with us, yer against us". Both sides of this issue are guilty of that. If everyone doesn't unite behind the complete and total restoration of our constitutional right to keep/bear, none of us will get what we want.

What does being afraid have to do with the issues being discussed here? Does flinging labels at those of us who want a reasoned and realistic approach to regaining our Constitutional rights make any sense or serve any valid purpose? Name-calling is silly and a waste of time.
We all appear to have the same ultimate goals. It is the methodology that appears to be the point of contention.
The baby steps we take now make us stronger as we grow.

[baldeagle]

Why are we - as voters afraid of anything (referring to more 30.06 postings)? has it actually come to that? We're "afraid" of politicians? We're "afraid" of corporations?

No, we're not afraid. We're just not stupid. Rights lost over a century aren't restored in a day. Wishing won't make it so. We have to fight just as hard to restore our rights as the jerks who fought to take them away from us.

I'm not advocating it, I'm just citing the absurdity of making a law that only affects law-abiding citizens.

No, you actually advocated for it.

This argument isn't about "gun rights". It's about “constitutional rights”. I think with very very few exceptions, anyone 18 and over has the god-given right to keep/bear arms - even felons. Passing a law saying that felons cannot legally own a gun is absurd, due mostly to the nature of being a criminal. Further, - and once again, with very few exceptions - they [felons] should be allow to wear their guns anywhere they go.

If what you're trying to say is that felons will always have guns, even if the law forbids it, then say that. The way you word the argument is absurd and offensive to the vast majority of the population. We carry guns because we know that felons do, and we want to be able to defend ourselves against them. Arguing that felons should be allowed to carry guns "anywhere they go" will not be understood by the average person as a statement on the absurdity of the laws against guns.

I do not agree that we should have to keep going back to the state on our knees with our hat in our hand to beg for a little more of our rights to be restored.

That's because you don't understand that the state is the people. Convince the people and the state will change. The recent elections should have made that obvious.

[flintknapper]

I have no use for bomb-throwers. It's just political bullying is all it is. I want to see the following enacted, in this order of importance:

1. Campus Carry
2. Parking Lot bill
3. Licensed OC
4. Full Constitutional carry

Numbers 1 & 2 actually have equal priority for me. Items 3 & 4 are worthy goals, but not at the expense of losing 1 & 2. The CC and PL bills actually have a good chance of passing in this session. If the militant OC crowd doesn't learn to moderate their behavior in the political arena, then they'll not only lose out on accomplishing their own agenda, perhaps for good, but they'll screw it up for everyone else too on the other bills. And being bomb-throwers, they won't have the integrity to admit that it was their fault.

I wouldn't give campus carry more than a 50/50 chance (only because the Political climate is correct and in light of recent events on campuses). As for PL, don't hold your breath. I will be greatly surprised if it passes.

I don't consider myself a "bomb-thrower"....and know full well the damage that can be done, but I also don't think the current way of "making nice" with legislators in Austin is going to get us anywhere, anytime soon.

Reminds me of a bunch of adolecents.....when if you say/do something they don't like, will "take their ball and go home".


But...maybe I'm just being impatient (for the fourth session). For the most part, this is all about "politics"....and not about anyone earnestly trying to restore lost rights to the citizens of Texas (whether they choose to avail of them or not).

[G.A. Heath]

jsimmons: Would you please define what you think constitutional carry means? Constitutional carry as practiced in AK, AZ, and VT does not give everyone the right to carry everywhere any way they want. In fact the best definition of constitutional carry I have seen is that it allows the unlicensed carry of firearms openly or concealed.

Constitutional carry, as practiced in the above 3 states, does NOT provide for campus carry or parking lot carry. I personally want to see AK/AZ style carry in Texas, but I know that is not going to happen in the near future. Being a realist I want to get what we can get now, mark that off the list and move on to the next few items so we can check them off the next time. The minimum situation I would like to see is strike handgun from 46.02(a) and striking 46.035(c). Additionally it would be nice to strike 46.02(a-1) and 46.02(a-2) to avoid confusion for motorists. This would give us AK/AZ Style constitutional carry. I know that the odds of getting this in the near future are about the same as me winning the Lottery, and I only buy one ticket a year, so I want to get the other stuff first.

[The Annoyed Man]

Wow - I'm famous. :)

I want constitutional carry. Period.

Why are we - as voters afraid of anything (referring to more 30.06 postings)? has it actually come to that? We're "afraid" of politicians? We're "afraid" of corporations? I'd much rather have my constitutional rights firmly in hand than worry about a few signs. Once we get constitutional carry, we can then take care of the signs. Once we have constitutional carry, copanies can't make us sign an agreement (company employee manual/policy manual) that forces us to relinquish our rights (disallowing us from keeping our guns in our cars). Once we have constitutional carry, it would be easier to achieve campus carry 9at least for institutions that rely on state/federal funding).

Constitutional carry is working for Ariozona, Vermont, and Alaska. I see no reason why it won't work here in Texas as well.

And, as human s are prone to do, it's easy to say "if you ain't with us, yer against us". Both sides of this issue are guilty of that. If everyone doesn't unite behind the complete and total restoration of our constitutional right to keep/bear, none of us will get what we want.

You're out of line, calling more rational heads "afraid." We're not afraid. We're just political realists. And by the way, we are political realists who share long term goals with OC militants, but who also understand that this is a process, and that other humans whose passions may not equal your own are involved, and they have to be persuaded rather than browbeaten if we want them to react favorably to the pro gun rights proposals. That is just the boots on the ground reality of the thing, and OCDO's refusal to understand and accept that reality is the political equivalent of stamping their little feet and threatening to have a tantrum if they don't get their way.... ...and everyone else can go to hades.

And you think that will turn legislators who have doubts or are undecided into supporters who will vote in favor of OC? Please.

[The Annoyed Man]

I have no use for bomb-throwers. It's just political bullying is all it is. I want to see the following enacted, in this order of importance:

1. Campus Carry
2. Parking Lot bill
3. Licensed OC
4. Full Constitutional carry

Numbers 1 & 2 actually have equal priority for me. Items 3 & 4 are worthy goals, but not at the expense of losing 1 & 2. The CC and PL bills actually have a good chance of passing in this session. If the militant OC crowd doesn't learn to moderate their behavior in the political arena, then they'll not only lose out on accomplishing their own agenda, perhaps for good, but they'll screw it up for everyone else too on the other bills. And being bomb-throwers, they won't have the integrity to admit that it was their fault.

I wouldn't give campus carry more than a 50/50 chance (only because the Political climate is correct and in light of recent events on campuses). As for PL, don't hold your breath. I will be greatly surprised if it passes.

I don't consider myself a "bomb-thrower"....and know full well the damage that can be done, but I also don't think the current way of "making nice" with legislators in Austin is going to get us anywhere, anytime soon.

Reminds me of a bunch of adolecents.....when if you say/do something they don't like, will "take their ball and go home".

But...maybe I'm just being impatient (for the fourth session). For the most part, this is all about "politics"....and not about anyone earnestly trying to restore lost rights to the citizens of Texas (whether they choose to avail of them or not).

Flint, I've never thought of you as a bomb thrower, and we actually share the same long term goals. We only differ in the process. I, and people who think like I do, believe that our rights were successfully taken from us because it was done incrementally. The result is that we now have generations who have never known it to be any other way. Those folks vote too. As baldeagle pointed out above, they have to be convinced also of the wisdom of it, otherwise you'll get the same digging in of the heels that politicians saw from the public over healthcare. Because of this, the best, strongest, and permanent solution to restoring those rights is to do so incrementally — so that the body politic doesn't feel stampeded into a fairly drastic change. I would love nothing better than to jump straight to constitutional carry. I just don't think that it is possible to get there in one fell swoop without the wheels coming off.

[The Annoyed Man]

And by the way, arming felons is just plain stupid. I would be in favor of reviewing the definitions of "violent" and "felon," but if someone did time for multiple armed robberies and then gets an early release for good behavior or overcrowding, arming that person is just all the way to the bone idiotic.

By the way, time off for good behavior is a joke. Good behavior in prison is the minimum expectation. You shouldn't have your sentence reduced for fulfilling a minimum expectation. In fact, failing to meet the minimum expectation should result in increased punishments. For every day that you act out in prison, two days should be appended onto your sentence.

[Dave2]

- I'm not sure I'd open carry that much if it were an option, but I really would like the option. I think once the novelty of being able to do it wore off, most people would conceal. It still seems to be quite rare even in the states that have always permitted open carry, licensed or otherwise.

I might OC once or twice just to say I did it, but mostly I want to not worry about people saying, "what is THAT?" and pointing at the grip of my gun (which conceals quite nicely when I'm standing, but hugely sticks out whenever I bend over).

[flintknapper]

- I'm not sure I'd open carry that much if it were an option, but I really would like the option. I think once the novelty of being able to do it wore off, most people would conceal. It still seems to be quite rare even in the states that have always permitted open carry, licensed or otherwise.

I might OC once or twice just to say I did it, but mostly I want to not worry about people saying, "what is THAT?" and pointing at the grip of my gun (which conceals quite nicely when I'm standing, but hugely sticks out whenever I bend over).

For me, its not even about how often (if ever) I would choose to carry openly.

The point is: It is a right that was taken from us in the 1870's in Texas... and I want that RIGHT and as many others related to gun ownership/carry restored.... (and new ones introduced). Also, I EXPECT the organizations I support (NRA/TSRA and others)... to move in that direction (support and introduce pro-gun laws), as many as we can!

These things can be talked about NOW....even if implemented later.

[GaryAdrian]

On my trip to Montana and Wyoming, two big OC states, I didn't see one person OC'ing. NOT ONE! It's no big deal there and if they do OC, it's most likely on their ranch or hunting. There is too much ado on this OC CC thing and posturing will not get OC.org anything. I am a poster over there but I don't post much. Too much hot air over there. An "All or Nothing" attatude will get nowhere fast!
I'd like to see OC if only it can give me a defense on exposing acccidentally.
Campus Carry is my #1. Period! All else can come after with OC at the bottom of the "Must Do" list. I am not against OC, I just don't want it to sink other gun laws.
I agree with Chas.



We gave our rights away a little at a time. Now we must restore them the same way.
Just to let you know, The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 30, 1993. That was 17 years ago. TODAY!
The Sullivan Law or the Sullivan Act as it's called,it dates to 1911, is still in effect in New York! It takes time to undo all this mess and it takes people like us to do it.
As for Campus Carry , we have to have it here in Texas. As John Lott has stated: "The debate here is no different than the debate over concealed carry generally. Soon after concealed carry is allowed on campus this whole debate will soon be forgotten because all the concerns will prove to be unfounded."
Once this is done, all else should fall in place.

[ScottDLS]

...
I'd like to see OC if only it can give me a defense on exposing acccidentally.
...

Actually we don't need a Defense (to prosecution) for accidentally exposing, as it's not against the law. It's intentional exposure that is illegal. I'd just like the option to "partially" conceal, like IWB with no cover garment. Anyway, I think I see your point in that legalized open carry avoids any "debate" over intent.

Interestingly, permitted concealed carry was adopted in some previously OC only states, in part to avoid being prosecuted for unintentionally concealing while trying to OC.

[dominus]

I'm not sure I understand what an open carry law would mean to the concealed carry law. would your chl allow you to open carry? Or would that be a different permit? Would it remove the failure to conceal provisions? If you did carry open, how would anyone know if you were licensed or not? Would you get a license to clip by your weapon like police have? I don't think I'd carry openly, but I would like to have the "failure to conceal" provision neutered.

[Keith B]

I have posted this before, but will do so again. I grew up and lived in an open carry state for 38 years. Was a LEO for 4 of those years. While you would see open carry out in the country while someone was target practicing, on their ranch or hunting, you VERY rarely saw it anywhere else. Additionally, the state allowed municipalities and counties to ban OC by their ordinances. If it was introduced in Texas, I think the only way to get it passed would be allow compromises for those who don't want it (one being numerous big business's with deep pockets that have influence in the political arena.) These compromises would more than likely include allowing cities to preempt the state OC law and ban it in their municipality, as well as extending 30.06 to cover the prohibition of OC (they will NOT make a different sign for that, so don't even go there.)

If you think we have nothing but friends in the Texas legislature that are all for us carrying, think again. We have MANY who would prefer to not have us carrying at all. Here is a good example of another shot at chipping away carry rights that exist today viewtopic.php?f=92&t=40022" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. If this gets passed, the next step on non-resident licenses will be to ban ALL out of state non-resident licenses from being valid unless you carried a resident one from your state (outside of Texas.) Several states have already implemented this (Colorado and Florida to name two.)

So, for those who feel you can bully your way into getting OC to pass by threatening the legislators, think again. Just look at what the stink over the Utah non-resident licenses being used by a Texas resident has done in getting the bill above introduced. The only way to gain our rights back is to support those who know how and when to lobby legislators and win friends in the State House and Senate. Those folks are the TSRA and NRA legislative teams who already have a good foot in the door and know who they can trust to help us get our rights back. If we join together and follow their lead, we can gain ground slowly but surely. If not, we will lose footing and slip backward. Remember the old saying, a house divided will soon fall; that goes for gun rights groups too.

[The Annoyed Man]

I'm not sure I understand what an open carry law would mean to the concealed carry law. would your chl allow you to open carry? Or would that be a different permit? Would it remove the failure to conceal provisions? If you did carry open, how would anyone know if you were licensed or not? Would you get a license to clip by your weapon like police have? I don't think I'd carry openly, but I would like to have the "failure to conceal" provision neutered.

That has multiple answers, depending on what you think OC means. If we're talking about "Constitutional Carry" (as in Arizona), then no permit is necessary for open or concealed carry. In New Mexico, where they have Open Carry, Concealed Carry requires a permit. In fact Arizona provides for, but does not require, a concealed carry permit, so that Arizonans who travel can have reciprocity with other states.

So Open Carry advocates in Texas seem to be divided into two camps: A) those who want Constitutional Carry; and B) those that want open carry and permitted Concealed Carry.

[MeMelYup]

I must ask a couple questions here. I have gone to the OCDO website and several others, and seen many entries talking about the 30.06 sign and anywhere there is no 30.06 sigh they can carry. In reading Texas Handgun Laws GC CH. 411 "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun".
Doesn't 30.06 refer only to licensed concealed handguns? Wouldn't a sign stating "The unlicensed carry of a handgun on these premises is forbidden" apply?