Surviving an Active Shooter

[baldeagle]

I would try to close the distance and do everything with in my power to eliminate the threat with out getting my fool head shot off.. Maybe its the Marine in me but I refuse to leave innocent people in that situation.
Im not a hero and Im not an internet tough guy. But I do know what I would do, or die trying.

If I am in the situation, I am not going to run away. I'll do my best to locate the shooter and take him down by whatever means necessary; two by four, chair, laptop or gun (can we PLEASE pass campus carry???)

[Jasonw560]

Our moderator Excaliber is the proprietor of Excaliber Security Services, a corporate and enterprise security consultancy, and his website (which I had a hand in developing) has some useful information about Active Shooter scenarios. He also holds seminars about the same....

http://excalibersecurityservices.com/pr ... urces.html

...We are fortunate to have his input here on this forum.

And maybe send some of the books, especially:Christensen, Loren W. Surviving a School Shooting - A Plan of Action for Parents, Teachers, and Students. to the presidents of every college and univeristy (except Bill Holda) in Texas.

[baldeagle]

This is, in my opinion, an exemplar for an active shooter situation.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cqDVBWcBy2g[/youtube]

[Jumping Frog]

I am not trying to be quarrlesome, but if you believe steps one through three are good advice, then please don't carry a gun. If you let an active shooter kill anyone past the point you could have stopped him, then you condemn yourself. You will have to live with the knowledge that you were carrying a gun, and chose to run away rather than trying to end the situation. Yes, you may end up getting shot, end up dying...but chances are you will anyway if you follow those steps.

There is one wrinkle that affects my response. If I am in public with my children, and there is an avenue open to escape without placing them into gunfire, my first job is to get them to safety. For example, in a mall and the shooting starts a couple of stores down -- I am getting my kids out of there. Only after they are safe would I entertain going back to stop the shooter.

Of course, if we are right in the middle of the gunfight under fire, then obviously it is gunfight ON.

[clarionite]

There is one wrinkle that affects my response. If I am in public with my children, and there is an avenue open to escape without placing them into gunfire, my first job is to get them to safety. For example, in a mall and the shooting starts a couple of stores down -- I am getting my kids out of there. Only after they are safe would I entertain going back to stop the shooter.

Of course, if we are right in the middle of the gunfight under fire, then obviously it is gunfight ON.

I'm no coward. And couldn't stand by and watch someone else injured if I could prevent it. But I didn't get my CHL to be John Wayne or Chuck Norris. I know I'm no hero, at least not when it comes to saving the day. My job as a Hero is to come home safe and sound to my wife and kids that depend on me. And that's everyone else in here's job too. I hear a lot of people saying they're no coward, and they couldn't run from a gun fight. They couldn't let others get injured when sacrificing themselves would have prevented it. I call Bull S#!t. A hero isn't someone who gets themselves killed for no reason. And that's exactly what can and most likely will happen when folks try to engage an Active Shooter.

If you're in a situation with an Active Shooter and the opportunity presents itself to neutralize the situation without harming an innocent bystander, then by all means take it. But if you've got the ability to safely get people out of the situation and use cover and your carry weapon to protect your group, do that too.

I carry a CHL because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Not because I want to play police man. If I can turn those few seconds into minutes to allow the police time to handle the situation, then I will. If I can get me and mine safely away, I'll do that too. But if it comes down to my children being orphans so that someone elses children won't be, then that's not a call I'm willing to make. If that makes me a coward in some of your books, I'm ok with that. The only people I'm willing to sacrifice my life to protect are those in my very small group of friends and family. And I think if more people with CHL's were to analyze the situation and be realistic then that's what they'd come to the conclusion of too.

[baldeagle]

I hear a lot of people saying they're no coward, and they couldn't run from a gun fight. They couldn't let others get injured when sacrificing themselves would have prevented it.

I don't recall one single person saying they would "sacrifice" themselves. What they are saying is if they are in an active shooter situation (think Lubys or a classroom at Virginia Tech), they are not going to jump out a window or try to hide behind a door. They are going to take down the shooter when he walks through the door.

None of us are idiots. Keep that in mind when you start making assumptions about what people are saying.

I call baloney. A hero isn't someone who gets themselves killed for no reason. And that's exactly what can and most likely will happen when folks try to engage an Active Shooter.

Interesting that you call taking on a active shooter "getting killed for no reason".

If you're in a situation with an Active Shooter and the opportunity presents itself to neutralize the situation without harming an innocent bystander, then by all means take it. But if you've got the ability to safely get people out of the situation and use cover and your carry weapon to protect your group, do that too.

While I agree that one should try to find a way to safety for the others, you have to keep in mind that in doing so you may well place them in harm's way. Active shooters aren't predictable, so you'd better be prepared for that unpredictability.

I carry a CHL because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Not because I want to play police man. If I can turn those few seconds into minutes to allow the police time to handle the situation, then I will. If I can get me and mine safely away, I'll do that too. But if it comes down to my children being orphans so that someone elses children won't be, then that's not a call I'm willing to make. If that makes me a coward in some of your books, I'm ok with that. The only people I'm willing to sacrifice my life to protect are those in my very small group of friends and family. And I think if more people with CHL's were to analyze the situation and be realistic then that's what they'd come to the conclusion of too.

Maybe, but why do you assume your children would even be there? What if they weren't? What would you do then? Would you jump out the window and run away when you have the means to end the carnage? Mind you, we're not talking about running half a mile to get to the gunfight. We're suggesting that you are in it, and you have two choices. Run or take the shooter out.

Which do you do then?

[clarionite]

I don't recall one single person saying they would "sacrifice" themselves. What they are saying is if they are in an active shooter situation (think Lubys or a classroom at Virginia Tech), they are not going to jump out a window or try to hide behind a door. They are going to take down the shooter when he walks through the door.

Actually others in here have stated they'd rather be shot by the shooter than run and live with the fact they ran. I say that our primary responsibility is to our family.
And only if you're able to stop the situation with a reasonable assurance that you won't put yourself in danger should you step up. For example, you're in the restroom when the stuff hits the fan, and happen to be able to stop the situation without the BG's attention being drawn to you. Some folks seem to think a CHL makes you able to do quick draws and save the day.

Interesting that you call taking on a active shooter "getting killed for no reason".

No, I call getting shot and killed because you decided to play hero, when a clear exit was available being killed for no reason.
I'll put myself between my family and the BG, and try to exit if at all possible. If I can take some other non BG's with me, then I will.
If I can take out the BG with no risk of not going home to take care of my family, I will. But I will not play hero and try to save the day.

While I agree that one should try to find a way to safety for the others, you have to keep in mind that in doing so you may well place them in harm's way. Active shooters aren't predictable, so you'd better be prepared for that unpredictability.

Yes, I understand that. And that's the reason I believe we all should have a CHL. To protect ourselves and our family. I hadn't expected to stand up and say excuse me, I'm leaving now.

Maybe, but why do you assume your children would even be there? What if they weren't? What would you do then? Would you jump out the window and run away when you have the means to end the carnage? Mind you, we're not talking about running half a mile to get to the gunfight. We're suggesting that you are in it, and you have two choices. Run or take the shooter out.

Which do you do then?

More than likely, If I'm there my family will be there. Unless it's at my office. And then I'll have to shoot my way out because I have no windows and only one exit.
But like I've said, If I'm presented with a clean shot to "end the carnage" as you stated, then I'll take it. If I can help others around me without getting killed, I'll do that too. But protecting my family isn't just about making sure they don't get shot. My family depends on me. I'm sure yours depends on you too. Part of protecting and providing for them means making sure I make it home to help my wife raise my kids and to put food on the table and a roof over their heads. I'm not much of a father if my first priority isn't doing just that.

[baldeagle]

My family depends on me. I'm sure yours depends on you too. Part of protecting and providing for them means making sure I make it home to help my wife raise my kids and to put food on the table and a roof over their heads. I'm not much of a father if my first priority isn't doing just that.

Cops' families depend on them as well. So do firefighters. So do military men and women. If everyone applied your standard (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with yours), we would have no one to stand in the gap.

So, while you choose to put family ahead of everything else, some make other choices. One is neither better than the other nor foolhardy in and of itself. My first instinct in an active shooter situation would be to make suggestions to others about how to escape or, if that's not possible, where to hide to maximize their safety. (For example, I have game planned in my mind how to get my officemates out of our suite without exposing them to gunfire in an active shooter situation.)

My second instinct would be to locate the shooter and take him out. Clearly I'm going to use cover and concealment where possible, and if I can shoot the guy in the back without him seeing me I will do so without hesitation or remorse. But I fully understand that there may be risk involved. Perhaps even high risk. One thing is for certain, if the bad guy becomes aware of me and starts shooting in my direction, he will not be killing anyone else at the same time (unless they're directly in the line of fire.) I have no desire to die, or even take a bullet, but in an active shooter situation, I will not be running away. It has absolutely nothing to do with being a hero, and everything to do with specific life choices that I have made.

As far as my family goes, I have enough insurance that if I dropped dead tomorrow they would not have to worry about paying the bills or where their next meal will come from. That too is a part of being responsible for your family.

[sugar land dave]

My family depends on me. I'm sure yours depends on you too. Part of protecting and providing for them means making sure I make it home to help my wife raise my kids and to put food on the table and a roof over their heads. I'm not much of a father if my first priority isn't doing just that.

Cops' families depend on them as well. So do firefighters. So do military men and women. If everyone applied your standard (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with yours), we would have no one to stand in the gap.

So, while you choose to put family ahead of everything else, some make other choices. One is neither better than the other nor foolhardy in and of itself. My first instinct in an active shooter situation would be to make suggestions to others about how to escape or, if that's not possible, where to hide to maximize their safety. (For example, I have game planned in my mind how to get my officemates out of our suite without exposing them to gunfire in an active shooter situation.)

My second instinct would be to locate the shooter and take him out. Clearly I'm going to use cover and concealment where possible, and if I can shoot the guy in the back without him seeing me I will do so without hesitation or remorse. But I fully understand that there may be risk involved. Perhaps even high risk. One thing is for certain, if the bad guy becomes aware of me and starts shooting in my direction, he will not be killing anyone else at the same time (unless they're directly in the line of fire.) I have no desire to die, or even take a bullet, but in an active shooter situation, I will not be running away. It has absolutely nothing to do with being a hero, and everything to do with specific life choices that I have made.

As far as my family goes, I have enough insurance that if I dropped dead tomorrow they would not have to worry about paying the bills or where their next meal will come from. That too is a part of being responsible for your family.

I understand the other position, but if you are in the immediate area of insanity, it cannot always be ignored.

[clarionite]

Cops' families depend on them as well. So do firefighters. So do military men and women. If everyone applied your standard (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with yours), we would have no one to stand in the gap.

Yes they do. They're very well trained for their encounters and perform their duties daily admirably. For their service I'm very grateful. I'm not a cop, and I'm no longer a soldier. But even when I was a soldier, I was trained to do what I did. I wasn't expected to wing it and put myself and others in danger.

As far as my family goes, I have enough insurance that if I dropped dead tomorrow they would not have to worry about paying the bills or where their next meal will come from. That too is a part of being responsible for your family.

Being there to help my wife raise my children is as important as the money. If I die, there's enough insurance to pay off all the bills, the house and the vehicles. Quite possibly enough to help with their college tuition also. But the money won't replace having a father to walk my daughter down the aisle when she gets married, or to talk to my son on prom night about being careful in more than one way. The money won't put me back in the stands at my son's football games, or my daughter's concerts. And it won't buy me a day with my grandkids that haven't been born yet. I'll say it again, I'll do what I can to help others if I can do so without taking away from my family. And I'm unapologetic about that.

It looks like we'll never agree here. So I'll let you have the last word. But IMHO those who think they should hunt down and actively engage BG's are terribly misguided at best. If the opportunity to stop a conflict without putting yourself into more danger, then take the shot. But don't put yourself into more danger than necessary.

[Bulldog1911]

Just curious,
All of the people saying "my first instinct, and my second instinct" etc.
Have you been in that situation before? If not, then I personally don't believe that you know what your instincts would be in that situation.
Maybe, you hope you know, but until it happens, you really don't.

I have never been in or around an active shooter situation, but I have had some "scary moments" while with my wife and kids, and the first thoughts that entered my head was how can i get them (my wife and kids) to safety.

Since I have never been in one of those situations, I won't even attempt to say what I would do.

I do know this, if you are LEO or military, then you have had beaucoups more training than the average CHLer. You may be very capable of defusing the situation, or detaining the perp. But, the average armed citizen...??? could possible make it worse.

Just my $.02

[baldeagle]

It looks like we'll never agree here. So I'll let you have the last word. But IMHO those who think they should hunt down and actively engage BG's are terribly misguided at best. If the opportunity to stop a conflict without putting yourself into more danger, then take the shot. But don't put yourself into more danger than necessary.

There's nothing wrong with us disagreeing, but that is not all that you are doing. You're also labeling people that you disagree with as "terribly misguided". That's the reason you keep getting responded to. If you simply said, "that's not how I see it" or "that's not how I would handle it" and left it at that, we'd be done. But to call others misguided simply because they view the world differently than you do is, well, misguided.

[baldeagle]

Just curious,
All of the people saying "my first instinct, and my second instinct" etc.
Have you been in that situation before? If not, then I personally don't believe that you know what your instincts would be in that situation.
Maybe, you hope you know, but until it happens, you really don't.

Part of being a good steward of your rights is to "be in" situations in your mind and role play. If you go through life blithely and ignore the possibilities, however remote they may be, when you are confronted with a situation, your first instinct will likely surprise you and you will lose precious seconds, possibly even lifesaving seconds.

I have never been in or around an active shooter situation, but I have had some "scary moments" while with my wife and kids, and the first thoughts that entered my head was how can i get them (my wife and kids) to safety.

Since I have never been in one of those situations, I won't even attempt to say what I would do.

Success is the result of preparation. If I'm confronted by an active shooter (a very real, if remote, possibility for me because I work in a "gun free" zone), I want to be successful. So I look for and plan for escape routes, game plan various scenarios, read prodigiously and pay attention to what I read, practice shooting regularly, participate in IDPA and listen closely to experts like Excalibur and Keith and other LEOs on this board.

Maybe it's the military background, but planning and thinking and preparing are a way of life for me. (Drives my wife nuts.)

I do know this, if you are LEO or military, then you have had beaucoups more training than the average CHLer. You may be very capable of defusing the situation, or detaining the perp. But, the average armed citizen...??? could possible make it worse.

Just my $.02

The average citizen doesn't carry a gun. Citizens that do carry guns have an obligation to prepare and to be aware. Otherwise they willlikely make it worse.

[Jasonw560]

Remember the Law of the 7 "P"s...Proper Previous Planning Prevents P- Poor Performance.

I didn't know what I would do when my first real code happened. I just acted out of instinct, because I had planned and trained for it. It became second nature to me.

I think it'll be the same when I get my CHL. I'll have the training, and I'll go through what I would do in my mind enough, and shoot enough, that it will become second nature.

[Bulldog1911]

The average citizen doesn't carry a gun. Citizens that do carry guns have an obligation to prepare and to be aware. Otherwise they willlikely make it worse.

Yes, but they didn't take an oath of office along with the CHL class. Preparation is key in anything, and that's why I think the situation could be handled better by SWAT instead of a "one man army" approach.