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Oldgringo wrote:How would this not so novel approach to representation work?

Serving in Congress and/or StateHouses is an honor, not a paid and pensioned career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If we had citizen legislators, do y'all reckon that more attention would be focused on the state's needs rather than personal gain?

In my version, they would be paid by the state a salary determined by the state would be answerable only to the state and could be fired at any time by the state.

I worked in center city Philadelphia from 1973 to 1979. Camden (right across the river) was a ripe trouble spot for crime then and I'm sure that it hasn't gotten any better. The only thing that makes Camden look good in NJ is Newark.

Criminals have free rein in both places.

Oh, let's play "The Police Math Game":
1) Take your total police force. Now divide by two. This generously estimates the number of "patrol" officers for a metropolitan area. The remainder are administrative staff, investigations, training, etc.
2) Take that number and divide by 2. That number also generously estimates the total number of police officers "on the street" at any given time (2 12 hour shofts).
3) Take the total population and divide by the number you get. That's your average number of officers that are theoretically available to respond to 911 calls.

Camden, NJ will now have one police officer for every 4000 people, roughly. Whee!

In Texas, that would be plenty, but in states that believe in Superman (California, NJ, MA, NY), it's not gonna be fun.

Beiruty wrote:To add to the trouble, County is also letting 36 Prosecutors and investigators to go home...

CAMDEN — A plan submitted to the Civil Service Commission would eliminate 68 employees at the Camden County Prosecutor's Office, including 26 investigators and 18 assistant prosecutors, according to a report on CourierPostOnline.com.

26+18=36? How long ago did they lay off the math teachers?

Beiruty wrote:50% of 370 Police Officers are to be dismissed due to budget cuts. Where? Camden, NJ Camden has a pop 80K. I tried to compare, Allen TX has similar pop and some 160 of Police Force. We had 0 murder last year. Camden has some 34 or so.

Who is jumping in? See here:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/0 ... ember.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I was on a PD in a city of about 135K and 55 Square miles in Texas we had 150 officers, including the chief. And had an average of less than 5 minutes to arrive at a call, with 10 to 12 units on the street.

What's their problem in city 60% of that size. They will still have 185. That is a ratio of 1:432. Our ratio was 1:900.

OldCurlyWolf wrote:

Beiruty wrote:50% of 370 Police Officers are to be dismissed due to budget cuts. Where? Camden, NJ Camden has a pop 80K. I tried to compare, Allen TX has similar pop and some 160 of Police Force. We had 0 murder last year. Camden has some 34 or so.

Who is jumping in? See here:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/0 ... ember.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I was on a PD in a city of about 135K and 55 Square miles in Texas we had 150 officers, including the chief. And had an average of less than 5 minutes to arrive at a call, with 10 to 12 units on the street.

What's their problem in city 60% of that size. They will still have 185. That is a ratio of 1:432. Our ratio was 1:900.

Their problem is their crime rate and the fact that their citizens aren't allowed to defend themselves effectively. Under those circumstances, a police force just doesn't cut it, even when it's staffed well beyond the levels that do just fine in freer states. You need an occupying army to make that work.

There is no castle law there.

In NJ, if someone breaks into your home, you have to retreat whenever possible before using force.

You can't carry a gun loaded with hollow point ammunition unless you're an LEO.

You can't buy a pellet or BB gun without a state firearms license.

These provisions of law and many others go a long way toward making "career criminal" a profitable and fairly safe occupation.

Thank God you live in Texas.

I guess for reasons of poverty or close family ties works at keeping people living there, but somehow you'd think a high percentage of that population would finally become tired of being perpetual victims and move away, far away...

Yes, I know the quick answer is they're poor so how can they move etc.

My response is if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way.

Remaining in a land of constant criminal activity without recourse to self-defense is a choice - not a sentence.

Abraham wrote:I guess for reasons of poverty or close family ties works at keeping people living there, but somehow you'd think a high percentage of that population would finally become tired of being perpetual victims and move away, far away...

Yes, I know the quick answer is they're poor so how can they move etc.

My response is if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way.

Remaining in a land of constant criminal activity without recourse to self-defense is a choice - not a sentence.

Their dream is to end up in Florida...many do.

Excaliber wrote:Their problem is their crime rate and the fact that their citizens aren't allowed to defend themselves effectively. Under those circumstances, a police force just doesn't cut it, even when it's staffed well beyond the levels that do just fine in freer states. You need an occupying army to make that work.

The logical conclusion is the people in Camden like the way things are in Camden. Otherwise they would change it. Either on the macro level by changing the government, or on a micro level by moving.

Oldgringo wrote:The logical conclusion is the people in Camden....

You assume they think logically.

The problem is they've renounced their personal responsibilities and rely on the state to provide their needs. This is why when something bad happens, they blame the state, and since they have no repsonsiblitiy, it's not their fault and they can point fingers in every other direction except at themselves.

TxA wrote:The problem is they've renounced their personal responsibilities and rely on the state to provide their needs. This is why when something bad happens, they blame the state, and since they have no repsonsiblitiy, it's not their fault and they can point fingers in every other direction except at themselves.

Like I said, they like it that way.

It's not a problem as long as they stay in their socialist workers paradise and don't infect healthy societies.

Abraham wrote:I guess for reasons of poverty or close family ties works at keeping people living there, but somehow you'd think a high percentage of that population would finally become tired of being perpetual victims and move away, far away...

Yes, I know the quick answer is they're poor so how can they move etc.

My response is if you want something bad enough, you'll find a way.

Remaining in a land of constant criminal activity without recourse to self-defense is a choice - not a sentence.

They choose to be victims by their actions. They have been taught by the media, their teachers, and their friends that they should rely solely on the government's protection. It makes them feel superior that they do not "stoop" to the criminals level by using guns and violence, and they feel really good about themselves right up until they are killed.

I have given up trying to change folks like those that would willingly live in such a situation. My sincere hope is simply that they do not move to my town.

Ameer wrote: Like I said, they like it that way.

It's not a problem as long as they stay in their socialist workers paradise and don't infect healthy societies.

and we're not just talking about New Jersey, we're talking about all of them (at least I am).

MasterOfNone wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:How would this not so novel approach to representation work?

Serving in Congress and/or StateHouses is an honor, not a paid and pensioned career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If we had citizen legislators, do y'all reckon that more attention would be focused on the state's needs rather than personal gain?

In my version, they would be paid by the state a salary determined by the state would be answerable only to the state and could be fired at any time by the state.

According to Wikipedia, your scenario isn't too far from what has happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey

Although once a thriving center for manufacturing and industry, Camden is perhaps best known for its struggles with urban dysfunction. Three Camden mayors have been jailed for corruption, the most recent being Milton Milan in 2000.[8] Since 2005 the school system and police department have been operated by the State of New Jersey; the takeover will expire in 2012

And if you wonder why there has been little concern from the citizens about the ongoing situation

In 2009, Camden had the highest crime rate in the U.S. with 2,333 violent crimes per 100,000 people while the national average was 455 per 100,000 [9] Camden public schools spend $17,000 per student per year and two thirds of the students graduate. Two out of every five residents are below the national poverty line.[10]

chasfm11 wrote:

MasterOfNone wrote:

Oldgringo wrote:How would this not so novel approach to representation work?

Serving in Congress and/or StateHouses is an honor, not a paid and pensioned career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so ours should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.

If we had citizen legislators, do y'all reckon that more attention would be focused on the state's needs rather than personal gain?

In my version, they would be paid by the state a salary determined by the state would be answerable only to the state and could be fired at any time by the state.

According to Wikipedia, your scenario isn't too far from what has happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey

Although once a thriving center for manufacturing and industry, Camden is perhaps best known for its struggles with urban dysfunction. Three Camden mayors have been jailed for corruption, the most recent being Milton Milan in 2000.[8] Since 2005 the school system and police department have been operated by the State of New Jersey; the takeover will expire in 2012

And if you wonder why there has been little concern from the citizens about the ongoing situation

In 2009, Camden had the highest crime rate in the U.S. with 2,333 violent crimes per 100,000 people while the national average was 455 per 100,000 [9] Camden public schools spend $17,000 per student per year and two thirds of the students graduate. Two out of every five residents are below the national poverty line.[10]

Dianne (woe is us) Sawyer had an article on Camden, NJ and other rat hole cities that are reducing their police forces on her ABC News Show tonight.

These folk have made their beds, now they must lie in them...too bad.