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MoJo wrote:Like Andy, I too have seen the elephant. Deliberate aimed fire beats spray 'n pray every day. When I was in Vietnam, I told my guys not to switch to full auto until I told them to. How many rounds to fire depends on the attacker - - - one shot he goes down great! If it takes more then apply them. As CHLs we have to be aware of collateral damage. Every bullet that misses it's intended target has a lawsuit attached. Remember to take your time - - - quickly.

I like that Mojo, "Take your time ----quickly."

That's why I like shooting the Steel Challenge. You have to be fast, but it does no good to be fast and not accurate. It also teaches you to asses a scenario, plan , and carry it out as quickly and accurately as possible. I am no speed demon, I just like the practice it gives me in drawing and addressing multiple targets at different ranges.

Andy and Mojo got it. Their answers addressed precisely what I've been pondering. So, if I understand their answers (I think I do, but who knows), I need to continue to practice both at the range and at IDPA to become proficient and comfortable with my EDC so that, if that time ever comes, I will be patient and accurate (but quick). Because I can't know ahead of time what I'll be confronted with, and because what I think is one bad guy could turn into two, or three, or even more, I need to conserve ammo while making every shot count no matter what I perceive the situation to be. And the only way I'm going to get to that point is to practice constantly and consistently so that it becomes second nature to, as MoJo says, "take my time - quickly".

MoJo, your comments made me think of the videos you see of guys in Vietnam shooting from behind a wall. They stick their M-16s over a wall and squeeze off a few rounds without even looking where they're going. Obviously they didn't report to you.

Seabear, your comment about the large cap guys at the steel challenge goes to the heart of my question. Would I be more likely to spray and pray if I thought I had plenty of ammo. Obviously I need to rid myself of that thinking and practice accordingly.

Skiprr, I get your concern, but as I clearly stated at the beginning, this is not about the recent controversy about "large capacity mags". It has to do with training, and thinking and mindset. As Andy points out, well more than 200 rounds may not be enough in the "wrong" situation. (Not that I think we civilians will ever have to experience that.) Since you simply cannot know ahead of time what you will be confronted with, you must always assume you don't have enough ammo (even if you carry 4 30 round mags) and plan your course of action accordingly. Fire as though you are running out of ammo, because you never know when you just might be. There is no worse situation to be in than to get in a firefight and run out of ammo and have a bad guy walk up to you and calmly put one in your brain.

Seabear:

It's great that you have 11 rounds of .45 on tap, but a tactical shortfall
that I see is that you have your backup mags in your console.

IMHO, the chances of you being involved in an armed encounter are much
greater if you are not in your vehicle.

Just as a gun on you is better than one elsewhere, you may wish to pick up
a single or double mag holder in Kydex, in order for you to have backup ammo
ONBODY. By single or double, I mean 1 or 2 magazines, not single stack mag
vs. double stack mag.

For a while I was using a ballistic nylon double mag holder with Velcro flaps.
I learned an important lesson at the October 2010 CHL forum day in Friendswood
when I took a "Semi-auto speed reloading" session with Mr. J.P. Guidry. He really
knows his stuff and it was the most informative 50 minutes I spent that day.

He and all the other members who had open-topped Kydex mag holders on their
belts had a significant time advantage over me when reloading. I came to realize
that my Velcro-strapped ballistic nylon ammo pouch was no longer going to cut it.

When I came home I started using a single mag Uncle Mike's ammo holder when
I had to, but then I bought a Springfield Armory XD double Kydex OWB ammo holder
for when I am in my non-work attire. That way I can carry 2 mags when off work.

Another lesson Mr. Guidry shared with the pupils is that he uses car wax to wax
his mags so that they fall free more easily when you hit the mag release. He uses
a Smith and Wesson M & P with a custom-flared mag well.

Another lesson he shared is that when you place your mags in your hard ammo holders,
always orient them so that when you draw them out you can place your
index finger on the leading edge of the top round to ensure you can pop it into your mag
well in the fastest manner.

I've been meaning to send a thank you PM to JP but I don't know what his screen name is.
TIA for anyone who can let me know that, either on this thread, or in a PM to me.

SIA

Suprised I am Armed:

I agree that it is not the best tactically to leave them in the console. It is a habbit I started a long time ago. Ther is spare ammo and mags for every gun I use frequently or for carry. Heck,even shotgun shells. It's all very organized and checked pretty regular. Bad thing is sometimes it makes me shoot more at the range. LOL Sometimes I run out and don't want to quit so I raid my truck stash. Like you, I expect more trouble out of my truck than in it. I just figure when the a problem arises I will be making way to my truck to get the heck out of there or to get a bigger gun. LOL (ie. .223 or shotgun)

I do have single and double mag carriers, I just have not gotten into the habit of wearing them. Although I have been rethinking that especially as this thread develops.

It definitely affects how much you can shoot, but I agree that carrying extra ammo shouldn't be an excuse for spray and pray marksmanship. If the problem can be solved with 12 rounds then it shouldn't matter if you're carrying 16 rounds or 32 rounds. However, it will matter if you're only carrying 8 rounds.

tacticool wrote:It definitely affects how much you can shoot, but I agree that carrying extra ammo shouldn't be an excuse for spray and pray marksmanship. If the problem can be solved with 12 rounds then it shouldn't matter if you're carrying 16 rounds or 32 rounds. However, it will matter if you're only carrying 8 rounds.

RPB wrote: I carry 20+1 and 2 to 3, often 4 spare 20 round mags (one on belt, 2 or 3 in jeans pockets) plus a 6-round BUG.

What kinda jeans do you buy, I can't fit a 12 round mag in my pocket without the top poking out, let alone try to sit down.

To the OP, I feel that when your body is dumping adrenaline into your system and the lead starts to fly, very few people will be aware of how many rounds they have fired. You will be focused on eliminating the threat, be it one mugger or 6 armed gang bangers. If you are involved in a situation that would call for an excessive amount of firepower, as a civilian in the streets, chances are you are outgunned and it won't matter if you have 5 rounds or 150. I feel you should carry what is comfortable and comforting to you be it 5,6,10, or 60 rounds.
BTW, I typically carry 15 rounds.

srothstein wrote:I should note that the police are now training for sustained spray and pray also. There is a theory that it is easier to train cops to do what they would have done instinctively anyway. In the case of people who shoot until the weapon is empty clearly shoot more with higher capacity magazines.

This seems to be the case for some of the shootings that are reported in the news. Especially when there are multiple officers on the scene, e.g. Summerlin Costco.

Great posts! Very thoughtful and informative! Bravo!