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seamusTX wrote:Gordon Hale was punched while sitting in a vehicle (immobilized) by a huge guy, something like 6' 6" and 350# and nine years younger. The first punch broke bones in his face.

Even so, he was arrested and charged with murder. He was no-billed.

There is no comparison with a man punching a woman who was the size and weight of an average 10-year-old girl.

- Jim

No argument, but years of riding ambulance tells me that anyone can break bones in another person's face if the punch lands right, and the point is that a punch can be considered deadly force.

I have seen a 110# woman beat the ever lovin' out of a strapping six footer because she got the first punch in and he went totally defensive, and being in adjacent rows in a stadium he had no avenue of retreat. She walked away (with the cops) with messed up knuckles, he had to wait for the ambulance crew to get there and then figure out how to get him out from between the stadium seats. I don't know who was at fault, I know there was a jostle and a spilled beer, but if I had been him, and carrying at that concert, I might have considered shooting her, if I was still conscious. I don't think I have ever seen fists move that fast outside a gym, she was using his face for a speed bag.

Admittedly the parking lot scenario would stretch things, but I can imagine the plea including the fact that he had no idea she was going to go all ballistic over the issue and that she assaulted him first, and followed him when he tried to retreat, and that his other defensive efforts had failed . . .

Two facts remain in this case:

• This fine citizen has a boo-boo on his forehead, while the woman is in critical condition.
• He is now under indictment, and his fate will be in the hands of twelve people who could not get out of jury duty.

- Jim

There are two people who could have prevented the whole thing. Both of them probably wish they had.

If someone punches me unprovoked I am going to respond in what ever way I think will end the situation with as little force ass possible, man or woman. Saying you would not, would be the same as saying you wouldn't shoot a 13 year old thug with a gun in your face. A threat is a threat and should be treated as such. I'v been punched by a woman before and while I didn't punch her I did stop the threat. NO ONE has a right to put their hands on me, and when someone does a person should be able to defend them selfs without this bull about the "victim" being a woman. I am willing to bet that this case wouldn't make it to a grand jury if it was two men involved

IANAL, and I understand that my opinion may be different than that of a court . . . or a jury.

But if there actually is surveillance footage showing the woman threw the first punch as reported in the OP, then I say self defense.

A petite woman is no 5-year old child, and as an adult, she is presumed to be responsible for her own actions. Moreover, the guy is not exactly a hulking cage fighter. Initiating violence (if that's what actually happened) puts the onus on her, as far as I'm concerned.

And I'm not saying chivalry is dead . . . it's just that if a female wants to be treated as a lady, she needs to act the part.

(As for the guy getting out of his truck and arguing . . . that's not very bright. For one thing, suppose he browbeat her into backing off and letting him park. Was he going to watch his truck continuously until he was ready to move on? If it were me, I personally would worry about it being vandalized when I came back.)

What if I'm carrying a 45 and somebody shoots at me with a 22? My 45 is bigger and more powerful than their 22.

If this guy were a man of honor and integrity, he would have never placed his hands on a woman in the first place regardless of her actions unless of course his live was in danger which it obviously was not. Over a parking place.... Really?

JDRFL1 wrote:If this guy were a man of honor and integrity, he would have never placed his hands on a woman in the first place regardless of her actions unless of course his live was in danger which it obviously was not.

Maybe she's a trained fighter, or is getting out her knife/gun with her other hand, or is just about to land a lucky hit. You can be killed by one punch you know.

JDRFL1 wrote:Over a parking place.... Really?

Yeah, parking spaces aren't worth fighting over.

AJ80 wrote:

Beiruty wrote:If this in TX,
When physically assaulted by the lady with first punch, the guy may had the justification to use force as a response, which he did.
In TX, the guy may got a no-bill or a good lawyer may got his client cleared as his actions was in-self defense.

Now leaving the scene was a wrong move, he should have called the 911 and reported the incident. A good lawyer may say he disengaged as not to escalate the incident more and he was not aware that the lady is seriously injured.
DA most likely would charge a aggravated assault causing serious bodily harm or 2nd degree manslaughter.

If I am wrong, please correct me where due.

I'm not a lawyer, but isn't it unlawful to use deadly force against force?

Absolutely it is lawful. Texas law says that use of deadly force is justified when A) use of force is justified AND B) the actor reasonably believes that the attack will cause either death or serious bodily injury.

PC 1.07 (46) says: '"Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates a substantial risk of death or that causes death, serious permanent disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ.' As I posted earlier today in another thread, I worked in an ER for a number of years. I've seen a number of people who were beaten to death with fists and feet.

Texas is a "true man" state, meaning that A) you have no duty to retreat as long as you have a lawful right to be where you are, B) you have every right to defend yourself, C) and you are under absolutely NO obligation to accept a physical injury to your person before you can make the reasonable determination that use of deadly force is justified. Having your teeth knocked out, nose broken, eye blinded, a concussion, a broken arm or leg, or anything along those lines constitutes "serious bodily injury" according to PC 1.07 (46). Any single one of those things, or all of them together, can be caused by an empty handed beating, and if you reasonably believe that your attacker can and will injure you that seriously if you don't stop him, then use of deadly force is absolutely justified.

There ARE caveats. If you threatened the other person first, and he preemptively attacked you, then you may not be justified in using deadly force. On the other hand, if you made the first threat, and the other guy shows up with 6 of his buddies and you have a change of heart and try to back down and leave, and you still get attacked, you would technically then be justified in using deadly force to defend yourself because of the disparity of force. The problem is, as Charles Cotton always points out in his Self Defense and Deadly Force in Texas seminars, if you kill someone, you've got 6 hostile witnesses who will swear that you attacked them without provocation when they were on their way home from Sunday School.

In other words, your own behavior determines whether or not you will have access to the protections afforded under the law. You have to remember that your CHL, and the justification of deadly force are your defense to prosecution if you have to shoot someone in self defense, and not a get out of jail free card. If you behave poorly and instigate the situation that leads to the use of force on your part, then you lose that defense to prosecution.

I cannot recommend Charles Cotton's above mentioned seminar enough. I've attended two of them now, and they are well worth the effort to make time in your schedule to attend one. It was his seminars that helped me to really begin to understand the deliberate use of the words "reasonable" and "reasonably" in the TPC in relationship to self-defense issues; and to understand the full scope of "serious bodily harm" and other terms that define when we may or may not use our weapons in self-defense (or defense of a third person).

I learned a long time ago that a prize-fighter was considered to have a deadly weapon - his hands.

I'm a feeble old man. Guess what I'm gonna do.

Two people chose to fight over a parking space. Both lost.

Here is a story of a 48 year old man beaten to death. Three suspects, one of them Kizzie Ann Thomas, a woman have been arrested. A large crowd was in the parking lot at the time of the incident.



http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/7467569.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.klfy.com/Global/story.asp?S=14192639" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theadvertiser.com/article/20 ... 10340/1002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No one is saying that a punch can't be lethal. That is a settled fact.

The problem is deciding when someone throwing a punch justifies the use of deadly force. We see this guy in the OP charged with felony assault, and probably murder if the woman dies.

Every CHL holder that has been prosecuted in Texas has shot an unarmed man, including the guy who is on trial in San Antonio.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:No one is saying that a punch can't be lethal. That is a settled fact.
- Jim

I know that. What upset me was that this happened in a public place, with a group of people watching, and no one lifted a finger to stop the beating.

WildBill wrote:

seamusTX wrote:No one is saying that a punch can't be lethal. That is a settled fact.
- Jim

I know that. What upset me was that this happened in a public place, with a group of people watching, and no one lifted a finger to stop the beating.

In a world where homeowners get prosecuted for shooting a home invader in the middle of the night, it would be crazy to risk getting involved in a fight between strangers.