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gigag04 wrote:

Rugerboy50 wrote:Man all these positive comments about the M&P rifle. I really want it for my 1st rifle but current thinking is a bolt action .223 will be better for my 1st rifle.

For what? .223 in a bolt action seems to be a rifle without a purpose.

I'm joining PSC soon and my goal is to find something i can shoot tight MOA groups at 200 and 300 yards.

Do i step up to a .270 or .308? Cost per round goes way up. I'm not a hunter.

do you want semi-auto or bolt action?

Here a semi auto. I saw it shooting sub 1- MOA at the range: http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Beiruty wrote:do you want semi-auto or bolt action?

Here a semi auto. I saw it shooting sub 1- MOA at the range: http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reading and talking with people has led me to form the opinion that bolt action is more accurate out of the box. Not sure if i'm right or wrong.

i have a couple of M&P pistols that i really really like,, therefore i equate it to wanting to like the M&P .223

Rugerboy50 wrote:

Beiruty wrote:do you want semi-auto or bolt action?

Here a semi auto. I saw it shooting sub 1- MOA at the range: http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=34" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reading and talking with people has led me to form the opinion that bolt action is more accurate out of the box. Not sure if i'm right or wrong.

i have a couple of M&P pistols that i really really like,, therefore i equate it to wanting to like the M&P .223

A bolt action design in general is going to be accurate, due to the way the bolt locks up solidly. However, the AR is no slouch, and is one of the best designs for accuracy in a semi-auto rifle.

Also, ammunition choice is also just as important if you're looking to get sub-MOA groups out of a rifle. Depending on the ammo, my AR will give anything from 4MOA using cheap .223 like American Eagle AE223 to sub-MOA using hand reloads that I've worked up for accuracy. The .223 round doesn't have a particularly flat trajectory due to its small diameter and relatively low mass, so I'm not sure if it is the best overall choice if your goal is to work at significant distances like 300 yards.

But this is also your first rifle. It's not likely to be your last. You seem to have some very specific goals for not having owned a rifle previously. I would suggest getting something that's utilitarian and versatile. Learn to shoot well at shorter distances. Figure out what it is you like to do, rather than what you've already decided on. By the time you get to the point of worrying about sub-MOA groups at 300y, you'll have a much better handle on what it is you're looking for. An AR is a good vehicle to get you there, as are a number of other choices. The AR is cheap to feed, meaning you can get better for less. You can do the same with a bolt-action .223, but you're going to be more limited in what you can do with it. If that's the choice you make, that's fine. There's not really a wrong path.

My first rifle (in 2006) was a Mosin-Nagant 91/30 (bolt action Russian WWI/WWII-era rifle), and I learned to shoot on it. It was cheap, and so was ammo. I put over a thousand rounds of 7.62x54R through it before I purchased my next rifle, which was a Marlin 60 (semi-auto .22LR). A few rifles later, I built my AR.

My point is, buy whatever you'd like and shoot it. A first rifle is very rarely a destination, but rather a jumping point to learning to shoot and finding something (or several somethings) you like.

Link:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/cdnn/CDNN2011-1.pdf *THIS IS A PDF FILE 35mb*

Download the catalog above and find the one that fits your budget.

If you don't mind a fixed carry handle (no flat top) Colt has an awesome deal at $899.

Let us know what you decide and why.

Rugerboy50 wrote:

gigag04 wrote:

Rugerboy50 wrote:Man all these positive comments about the M&P rifle. I really want it for my 1st rifle but current thinking is a bolt action .223 will be better for my 1st rifle.

For what? .223 in a bolt action seems to be a rifle without a purpose.

I'm joining PSC soon and my goal is to find something i can shoot tight MOA groups at 200 and 300 yards.

Do i step up to a .270 or .308? Cost per round goes way up. I'm not a hunter.

My son has a Rock River Arms 24" Stainless bull barreled varminter that will repeatedly put five rounds into 1/4" at 100 yards. I love me some bolt rifles, and we own a couple of extremely accurate examples in .308, but that RRA is easily the most accurate rifle in our safe. It's pretty hard to beat a rifle that consistently produces .25 MOA.

If you're looking for accuracy over all else, might as well go with the 20 inch barrel instead of the more popular 16 inch (or 14.5 with flash hider) set up in my opinion. My first AR someday will probably be an A2 clone like this:

There's just something beautiful about a clean, functional rifle. You could get a flat top 20 inch and throw some optics on and I bet you'd enjoy it at 200 and 300 yards without a problem.

Great advice from NcongruNT and Annoyed Man.

74Novaman i like it.

Have checked out CDNN as well. They have a H&R 45 long colt that has my eye.

Think i accidentally hijacked this thread. My apologies.

Go for ALL the bacon I say. You only live once!

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/CMM ... Bacon-1325" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote="NcongruNt']The AR is cheap to feed, meaning you can get better for less.[/quote]

I see something along these lines posted all over the place but rarely is it followed up by a slight qualification. While the AR is relatively cheap when compared to other rifles (specifically other calibers), unless you have access to a place to shoot FMJ, the cost of ammo when compared to pistol ammo (if that is what you are used to shooting) will be considerably higher. I love shooting my AR, but unless I go to 1 of 4 specific ranges in the DFW metroplex (all of which are at least an hour away), then FMJ is out and I am stuck shooting higher cost hollow point or pointed soft point ammo, which is more expensive.

Just remember that when you get your AR, you can trick it out over time. I bought my Bushmaster about a month ago, and I'm already eye-balling a new upper in 6.8 SPC.

Stopped by SOG Armory this morning.

Looked at a RRA Coyote. 18" barrel.

Liked it.

Seems RRA has more build and upgrade options than a S&W.

SOG is proud of their prices.

Rugerboy50 wrote:Stopped by SOG Armory this morning.

Looked at a RRA Coyote. 18" barrel.

Liked it.

Seems RRA has more build and upgrade options than a S&W.

SOG is proud of their prices.

Oh yeah but they have almost everything you would want to fondle.

When I decided I wanted an AR, I bought a stripped lower, then bought a kit from ar15sales.com that included all the parts necessary to build your own rifle except a stripped lower. The parts in the kit are all Stag, and they include an assembled upper. I had a blast building the lower, and I feel that I have a better understanding of how the rifle works. It only had a couple stoppages during the break-in period, and since then it has been good to go. I would definitely recommend building your own. If I had more tools (and the dedication I do now), I would have built my own upper as well. The total for my completed rifle was right at $800.

As far as the accuracy discussion that was going on, you need to know what you will be using the rifle for. My M4gery isn't going to win any bench competitions, but I guarantee it would do its part during an armed confrontation inside 100 yards (but could I do mine? ).

Training is more important that which rifle you get. I would definitely get an AR in 5.56mm though, due to the versatility, availability of parts, and reasonable ammo.

beardking wrote:

NcongruNt wrote:The AR is cheap to feed, meaning you can get better for less.

I see something along these lines posted all over the place but rarely is it followed up by a slight qualification. While the AR is relatively cheap when compared to other rifles (specifically other calibers), unless you have access to a place to shoot FMJ, the cost of ammo when compared to pistol ammo (if that is what you are used to shooting) will be considerably higher. I love shooting my AR, but unless I go to 1 of 4 specific ranges in the DFW metroplex (all of which are at least an hour away), then FMJ is out and I am stuck shooting higher cost hollow point or pointed soft point ammo, which is more expensive.

That's highly subjective to your locale. There is ONE range in the Austin area that has that policy. I don't go there. Even if I did, for me that obstacle could easily be overcome by using HP or SP bullets in my reloads instead of FMJ.

I'm sorry that the situation is so poor in DFW, that is unfortunate. However, in my experience that is not the situation in most locations. Even if you're in that situation, ANY caliber is going to be more expensive if you're stuck shooting factory HP or SP loads. In that situation I'd still think .223 would be cheaper than most calibers.