TexasCHLforum.com

03Lightningrocks wrote:

Kahrry wrote:

baldeagle wrote:

Kahrry wrote:I think I know the answer but we are headed towards Cabelas right now to get a Kahr for my friend. I have a good coupon but have to use my. Cabelas credit card to get the deal. We both have CHL. Can he fill out the paperwork and I buy it or will I have to fill it out.

I wanted to try and ask here first so as not to alert any staff there for any reason. Thanks for the help.

This is how ridiculous our laws have become. It forces you to think in ways that make no sense.

You are going to Cabelas because your friend has decided to purchase a Kahr, right? So, your friend picks out the gun he wants, fills out the paperwork and then the clerk says to your friend, "How do you want to pay for this?" You answer, "I'm buying it for him as a gift." How is that a straw purchase? Your friend showed his CHL, which means he is qualified to purchase the gun. I can't imagine that Cabelas would have a problem with this. If you're really that concerned about it, just answer, "I'm going to put it on my Cabelas card and he's going to write me a check later."

That was the plan but was told if I buy the gun then i have to fill out the paperwork. I thought straw was buying a gun for someone who was not allowed/capable of buying a firearm. I had no intention of committing a felony, just wanted to help a good chl friend out with a coupon on a firearm. If I buy a firearm and know I just want to shoot it once for kicks and then sell it, is that intent?

Yes... that is an illegal purchase. Purchasing a firearm with the intentions of selling it is illegal unless you are an FFL. Test firing the weapon does not change the fact that you bought the weapon with the plan to sell it.

I purchase and trade weapons a few times a year. I never purchase a weapon with the intentions of selling it. I purchase it with the intentions of keeping it and adding it to my collection. Deciding to sell it or trade it later has nothing to do with my intentions at the time of purchase.

I understand now.

Another option here would be to take the gun to an FFL and have him do a legal transfer to your friend. If your friend has his CHL, you should be able to find an FFL willing to do that transfer for $10-$15. I think that would probably take care of the straw purchase issue.

Brian

The problem has nothing to do with being a straw purchase. It is illegal to purchase a weapon with the intent to sell it unless you have a FFL. It is also illegal to lie on the form.

Kahrry... check your PM's

03Lightningrocks wrote:The problem has nothing to do with being a straw purchase. It is illegal to purchase a weapon with the intent to sell it unless you have a FFL. It is also illegal to lie on the form.

The intent to sell it is not what is illegal, it's the making a false statement on the Form 4473, according to the ATF regulations available here.

It's also my understanding of the rules that the ATF would not consider it a false statement on 4473 if the original buyer transfers it through an FFL, because he is not directly transferring it to another person.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't hold an FFL, so further research would be needed by the OP to verify this.

Brian

...ATF doesn't care whose money pays for the gun...they(and the 4473) only care about who the gun's being transferred to...absolutely nothing wrong with paying for a gun for someone...as long as the true owner fills out the 4473...

...never heard of a store refusing to let another party pay for the gun...we did it all the time...it's NOT illegal...

03Lightningrocks wrote:I am pretty sure if you purchased a firearm with the intent to sell it to someone else, it is a felony. I don't have the form in front of me but I am 99.9% sure there is a question on the form asking if I am buying the weapon for myself... or something of this nature. Answering yes while planning on selling it to my buddy would be a felony and falls into the category of a straw purchase.

I think you would have been perfectly legal if he filled out the paperwork and said he was purchasing the firearm. I don't believe there is a law about who's money he uses. The only way that would have been an issue is if Cabelas smelled a rat. Not that there is a rat... just that they felt uncomfortable about the situation. Like posted above... husbands and wives buy firearms together all the time and use whatever card to pay. (IANAL)

Thinking more about it... I can hand my credit card to anyone and give them authorization to use the card. I have done it. I hand my credit card to employees all the time to pick up parts or what not for jobs.

Form question 12 a.
Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring
the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to
you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

I know I have seen billboards, and signs, and other things saying "if you buy a gun for someone who canNOT, then you go to Jail"
But if you are buying a gun for someone who could legally buy it themselves, I don't know what the issue is.

I know my wife bought me my first gun and most certainly told the guy that it was for her husband.

Kahrry wrote:I think I know the answer but we are headed towards Cabelas right now to get a Kahr for my friend. I have a good coupon but have to use my. Cabelas credit card to get the deal. We both have CHL. Can he fill out the paperwork and I buy it or will I have to fill it out.

I wanted to try and ask here first so as not to alert any staff there for any reason. Thanks for the help.

You will find a copy of ATF Form 4473 at the below link. As is usually the case, one cannot know for sure that the form is the latest edition, but the points I make here will certainly be applicable to the current edition. The sections I point at here were definitely there a few days ago when I purchased a handgun.

http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The first question, No. 12.a., is noticeable in that it is the only question generally answered "YES." If it is answered "NO," do not expect to walk out with the gun. If it is answered "YES" untruthfully, that is, the true answer should be "NO," take a look at the bold type at the bottom of Section A. A FELONY!

Turn to the first of the IMPORTANT NOTICES near the bottom of the form and you will see the BATF's answer to your question.

Elmo

b322da wrote:

Kahrry wrote:I think I know the answer but we are headed towards Cabelas right now to get a Kahr for my friend. I have a good coupon but have to use my. Cabelas credit card to get the deal. We both have CHL. Can he fill out the paperwork and I buy it or will I have to fill it out.

I wanted to try and ask here first so as not to alert any staff there for any reason. Thanks for the help.

You will find a copy of ATF Form 4473 at the below link. As is usually the case, one cannot know for sure that the form is the latest edition, but the points I make here will certainly be applicable to the current edition. The sections I point at here were definitely there a few days ago when I purchased a handgun.

http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The first question, No. 12.a., is noticeable in that it is the only question generally answered "YES." If it is answered "NO," do not expect to walk out with the gun. If it is answered "YES" untruthfully, that is, the true answer should be "NO," take a look at the bold type at the bottom of Section A. A FELONY!

Turn to the first of the IMPORTANT NOTICES near the bottom of the form and you will see the BATF's answer to your question.

Elmo

Here's the form's explanation:

• For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example, redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment).You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party. ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

It seems that it is perfectly legal for the intended owner to fill out the form and honestly answer no to the pertinent question, another person pay the money for it, and the intended owner walk away with it. FFLs/sellers have the responsibility of lawfulness, so they are instructed to follow their instincts if something doesn't seem right. Some, especially stores, have drawn up personal policies to require the owner, form-signer, and payer to all be the same person in order to reduce the amount of personal discretion required.

Hoi Polloi wrote: It seems that it is perfectly legal for the intended owner to fill out the form and honestly answer no to the pertinent question, another person pay the money for it, and the intended owner walk away with it. FFLs/sellers have the responsibility of lawfulness, so they are instructed to follow their instincts if something doesn't seem right. Some, especially stores, have drawn up personal policies to require the owner, form-signer, and payer to all be the same person in order to reduce the amount of personal discretion required.

That is my take on it also. LOL... and the usual... IANAL. I watched a gun sale get canceled at Bullet Trap over a similar issue. One of the guys made some kind of comment that put into doubt who was actually buying the gun. The feller working at Bullet Trap pulled the form away and said... "I am sorry, I can't sell you the gun if your buying it for him". They tried to recant what was said and were told it was too late, since the comment was already heard.

I have always believed that the person filling out the form is the person taking possession of the firearm. It is not illegal for me to pay for someone else's weapon. It is illegal for me to answer yes on the form when the answer is no. The no answer means I can't buy the gun.

I am also of the impression that an FFL can refuse to do a transfer if they believe something is not right. They don't have to prove something is wrong, they just have to suspect it. If I were an FFL, I would err on the side of extreme caution. The ATF occasionally sends in agents that will try to trip FFL holders up and will prosecute on a technicality.

What is FFL?

MMac wrote:What is FFL?

Federal Firearms License, or in other words a gun dealer.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've seen that reference in several posts and wanted to make sure.