TexasCHLforum.com

Divided Attention wrote:It is my understanding you cannot purchase a handgun or ammo for a handgun until you are 21... I know 21 seems like forever away, but wait until you are more than twice the other side

So - can you show us how you are gonna conceal your longarm?

...disagree...my sons have owned and carried handguns since 9 years old...on our property and property we've been invited to...my 18-year-old is out weedeating on our property right now...packin' his .38 revolver concealed that he's owned since then...why are y'all bustin' the chops of a man old enough to sign up and die for our country??? Betcha he's old enough to ignore the insults and continue on asking and learning along with the rest of us...at least I hope so...

from the NRAILA website, looking at the Texas laws, tried to search Thomas.gov, but couldn't find it....We were wrong, you can buy a gun at 18, if you can find someone to sell it to you, alot of shops won't, earlier if you have "written permission from parents"

Carrying...
"A person commits an offense of unlawfully carrying a
weapon if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly
carries a handgun on or about his or her person unless the
person is on one’s own premise or premises under the person’s
control or inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle
that is owned by the person or under the person’s control.
It is unlawful to intentionally, knowingly or recklessly carry
on or about one’s person a handgun in a motor vehicle if the
handgun is in plain view or the person is engaged in criminal
activity (other than a misdemeanor traffic violation), prohibited
by law from possessing a firearm or is a member of a street
gang."

everything else on the page pretty much deals with getting the license. It might be a good place for you to read.

Speedsix, I don't think anyone has been insulting him...I think everyone has been trying to help him out.

SewTexas wrote:from the NRAILA website, looking at the Texas laws, tried to search Thomas.gov, but couldn't find it....We were wrong, you can buy a gun at 18, if you can find someone to sell it to you, alot of shops won't, earlier if you have "written permission from parents"

You need to look at the federal laws

From http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/federal/read.aspx?id=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Regarding purchase from a dealer.

Provided that federal law and the laws of both the dealer`s and purchaser`s states and localities are complied with:

An individual 21 years of age or older may acquire a handgun from a dealer federally licensed to sell firearms in the individual`s state of residence
An individual 18 years of age or older may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed dealer in any state

Also...

The following classes of people are ineligible to possess, receive, ship, or transport firearms or ammunition:

Those convicted of crimes punishable by imprisonment for over one year, except state misdemeanors punishable by two years or less.
Fugitives from justice.
Unlawful users of certain depressant, narcotic, or stimulant drugs.
Those adjudicated as mental defectives or incompetents or those committed to any mental institution.
Illegal aliens.
Citizens who have renounced their citizenship.
Those persons dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces.
Persons less than 18 years of age for the purchase of a shotgun or rifle.
Persons less than 21 years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle.
Persons subject to a court order that restrains such persons from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner.
Persons convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

SewTexas wrote:Divided has the main point.....all of us missed in dealing with the rest of it......you aren't old enough to have a handgun...plain and simple. no way around that one.

..the above is not only in error but rude...more so because it is wrong...under several conditions he's quite old enough to have a handgun, according to law...he's already said he's 20 and knows he can't get his CHL ...he can legally own handguns/ammo much younger than 18 if he meets certain criteria...one of which is defense of person or property...one is with parents' written permission...
...he cannot buy a handgun until 21 with or without parents' signature from an FFL...he may buy a long gun or ammunition for same at 18 (without any parent's signature...)USC Title 18 Chap 44 922.(b) (1)

CJD, I apologize if you found my post rude, I certainly didn't mean it to be. I am sometimes very quick on the keyboard and I suppose it could be interpreted as rude.

I again apologize,

denwego wrote:I'd argue that anyone who owns or controls a property in a legally controlling way can "allow" someone to carry a handgun/illegal knife/club on their real property.

Can you show me where the Texas Penal Code says that's an exception to 46.02?

You can argue feelings all day long, but I think the LEO arresting him and DA prosecuting him will care more about the law than your feelings about property rights.

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control

...it's not about feelings...the question in law is: Does the person carrying the weapon have control of the premises???

speedsix wrote:Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control

...it's not about feelings...the question in law is: Does the person carrying the weapon have control of the premises???

It looks like the answer is no.

CJD wrote:Sorry if this has been posted before, I tried to find it but couldn't. If you don't have your CHL yet, what are the laws regarding carrying at work? My main question, if they tell you it is allowed, is it then legal while you're at work? Or do you HAVE to have CHL to carry in public places? I work at a resort. Thanks. (note: please don't respond with "just get your CHL" because at the present I am only 20, believe me, I would if I could).

...depends on what control means, doesn't it? My neighbor across the street has my door key, garage code, permission (written) to care for and control my property and access to it...including removal of anything he wants without challenge...he can do anything but sell the house...he has control...
...I worked as an employee of a pawn shop...buying and selling NOT doing security...and I had keys to the shop, the code for the alarm and passcode...opened and closed...yet I wasn't a manager...I could go in after hours or early if I wanted...do plumbing or such...I had control...
...that's different from the boss saying "Yeah, OK, you can carry your gun...it's fine with me"...I'd be nervous about that one...but I haven't seen caselaw on any of these matters yet...so that's just my opinion and my experience was based on...my opinion...

If he really has control, it doesn't seem to matter if the owner gives (or denies) him permission to carry on the property.

So now I'm curious. What does it mean when a statute says "premises under the person's control"? We all have guesses (employee, manager, owner, etc), but what does that phrase mean to a legislator or lawyer? Here's what one legal dictionary says they mean:

Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary
http://www.nolo.com/dictionary/control-term.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
control
The power to direct, regulate, manage, oversee, or restrict the affairs, business, or assets of a person or entity.

I did a search of the statutes for the same phrase to see how else it is used. Control seems to be a very low legal standard. For example, a babysitter would seem to meet the penal code offense if she knowingly lets her charges make abusive calls to 911 as the phone will have been under her control at the time. This is just my reading of the phrase within the context of how it is used across all the statutes and obviously wouldn't hold any weight if a 20-yr-old was arrested and having to argue his case in court, but I think it does further the casual discussion we're having. So now the question, for me, becomes what in particular makes one in control of a premises. Especially in a small business, every employee might be invested with equal authority to direct or restrict access (eg kick someone out, sign for packages, etc) to the premises. If the owner has expressly granted them the authority required to be in control of the premises, it looks like a 20-yr-old could carry there in my totally unprofessional reading, except if he was intending to use the firearm in the course of his professional duties which would open him to the security guard statutes.

Here are some of the places the phrase appears in other TX statutes:

Penal Code Sec. 42.061. SILENT OR ABUSIVE CALLS TO 9-1-1 SERVICE.
(c) A person commits an offense if the person knowingly permits a telephone under the person's control to be used by another person in a manner described in Subsection (b).

Finance Code Sec. 181.002. DEFINITIONS. (a) In this subtitle:
(13) "Control" means:
(A) the ownership of or ability or power to vote, directly, acting through one or more other persons, or otherwise indirectly, 25 percent or more of the outstanding shares of a class of voting securities of a state trust company or other company;
(B) the ability to control the election of a majority of the board of the state trust company or other company;
(C) the power to exercise, directly or indirectly, a controlling influence over the management or policies of the state trust company or other company as determined by the banking commissioner after notice and an opportunity for hearing; or
(D) the conditioning of the transfer of 25 percent or more of the outstanding shares or participation shares of a class of voting securities of the state trust company or other company on the transfer of 25 percent or more of the outstanding shares of a class of voting securities of another state trust company or other company.

Civil Practice and Remedies Code Sec. 71.002. CAUSE OF ACTION.
(2) the injury was caused by:
(C) a bad or unsafe condition of the railroad, street railway, or other machinery under the person's control or operation.

Civil Practice and Remedies Code Sec. 74.001. DEFINITIONS. (a) In this chapter:
(3) "Control" means the possession, directly or indirectly, of the power to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of the person, whether through ownership of equity or securities, by contract, or otherwise.

Transportation Code Sec. 545.304. MOVING THE VEHICLE OF ANOTHER; UNLAWFUL PARKING.
A person may not move a vehicle that is not lawfully under the person's control:
(1) into an area where a vehicle is prohibited under Section 545.302; or

Finance Code Sec. 306.001. DEFINITIONS.
(2) "Affiliate of an obligor" means a person who directly or indirectly, or through one or more intermediaries or other entities, owns an interest in, controls, is controlled by, or is under common control with the obligor, or a person in which the obligor directly or indirectly, or through one or more intermediaries or other entities, owns an interest. In this subdivision "control" means the possession, directly or indirectly, or with one or more other persons, of the power to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of a person, whether through the ownership of voting securities, by contract, or otherwise.

Health and Safety Code Sec. 81.063. SAMPLES.
(a) A person authorized to conduct an investigation under this subchapter may take samples of materials present on the premises, including soil, water, air, unprocessed or processed foodstuffs, manufactured clothing, pharmaceuticals, and household goods.
(b) A person who takes a sample under this section shall offer a corresponding sample to the person in control of the premises for independent analysis.

Education Code Sec. 37.121. FRATERNITIES, SORORITIES, SECRET SOCIETIES, AND GANGS.
(b) A school district board of trustees or an educator shall recommend placing in a disciplinary alternative education program any student under the person's control who violates Subsection (a).

Finance Code Sec. 59.301. DEFINITIONS. In this subchapter:
(4) "Control" means the authority to determine how, when, and by whom an access area or defined parking area may be used, maintained, lighted, and landscaped.

CJD - No chop busting intended by any stretch of the imagination. Typed word misses so much some times with tone and intent. In your OP you mentioned your age. I am well aware that someone under 21 can "legally possess" a handgun, as I have been shooting pistols since grade school - when dinos roamed. However, I was only tossing in the thought that purchasing ammo or a weapon from a dealer, not a private individual, were going to be obstacles for you to overcome before ever considering carrying if you didn't already have one from another source.

I applaud you wanting to take responsibility for your protection, and for coming to a source such as this for information. For the most part this is a group of awesome folks that are an invaluable resource. I apologize if I muddied the waters by commenting on something that caught my attention. I wish you the best

Chops remain non-busted, and no chips are there upon my shoulder

Divided Attention wrote:It is my understanding you cannot purchase a handgun or ammo for a handgun until you are 21... I know 21 seems like forever away, but wait until you are more than twice the other side

So - can you show us how you are gonna conceal your longarm?

Trust me, I'd love to carry my AK around work all day

Hoi Polloi - You get at the crux of the matter. And you're right, control is a low standard. It can be granted by the owner, exercised in a practical way, implicitly present, or conjured up in court using legal fictions. Since it means so many things, I always like giving a list of examples rather than try to quote everything in the common law, because there's a LOT of them:

- You own a bit of land; you control that land.
- You rent some land or a building or a part of a building from the owner; you control those premises, with whatever stipulations are in the lease.
- You're alone in your friend's house with his permission; you control that house while he's gone.
- You're driving your cousin's car with his permission; you control that car (and everything in it... just try to say "I'm not in control of this car!" to a cop when he finds drugs in it )
- You're the manager of a business as the owner, or a higher manager, or the like tells you you're in charge for eight hours a day; you control that place.
- Your friend tells you explicitly that you're in control of his land, with whatever conditions he puts on you; you control that land with those conditions (a sort of verbal lease).
- Your dad lets you borrow his old set of golf clubs for the day; you control that property for that day, or essentially until you give it back.

Control of property is exercised independently of ownership (example - your landlord can't enter your leased apartment without your permission, unless there's something in the lease you agreed to); it's also intimately tied in with possession and custody (you're in your friend's house with his permission and he's not around, de facto leaving you in charge; or, the borrowed car example). Without a really huge post, a court would be terribly challenged to refute someone being on "property under the person's control" if the owner of that property stood up and says, "I've given Mr. X control of my property, to the point that he can carry a handgun on those permises." Even using a lower standard like preponderance of evidence in a civil setting, that's a damn near impossible thing for a prosecutor to disprove... how could you refute the owner saying that in open court, so to speak. All of this assumes the owner/leaseholder/dude-with-the-final-say explicitly allows it; a normal employee without explicit permission would not be reasonably assumed to have control over premises in a satisfactory way.

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Personal example - When I went out of town about a year ago for a professional conference, my fiancée came over and walked the dog, watered the plants, and otherwise looked after the place. I left a note with my signature on it saying that she had my permission to be there, spend the night, etc. etc., in the remote-but-possible chance she'd need to call the police or the like. I specifically included on that paper that she could have and use my pistols while she was there, in case something happened. That's unnecessarily comprehensive, I admit, but it's pretty airtight at the same time.