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The word of God teaches us to obey all laws (Romans 13), UNTIL obedience of those same laws cause us to DISOBEY God's laws. Therefore, I'll pray in the name of Jesus and address my heavenly father as Almighty God any time and anywhere I want, regardless of the consequences. Heaven is way more important to me than obeying some leftist's laws, especially if they are the result of left-wing government, ACLU, or whatever else moronic group. In the long run, God will prevail and everything else will fail. Even history, not just the Bible, proves this.

bootsdeal wrote:The word of God teaches us to obey all laws (Romans 13), UNTIL obedience of those same laws cause us to DISOBEY God's laws. Therefore, I'll pray in the name of Jesus and address my heavenly father as Almighty God any time and anywhere I want, regardless of the consequences. Heaven is way more important to me than obeying some leftist's laws, especially if they are the result of left-wing government, ACLU, or whatever else moronic group. In the long run, God will prevail and everything else will fail. Even history, not just the Bible, proves this.

It's real simple- It is a service on federal property. A person can be honored and remebered without having to invoke their particular name of God, Allah, rice crispies, etc...

The way that people get around this is having a private memorial service where they can pray all they want. Then they have the deceased transported to the national cemetary where they have a burial ceremony.

What hacks me off is when people and chaplains misuse their perceived authority to the disregard of those present who may have a different religions/faith or none at all. I've seen it where the chaplain prays in whatever name s/he wished and disregarded the family and/or the deceased. Or the family doesn't approve of the deceased's religion and prays in their own. That is really showing respect to the deceased! NOT.

v-rog wrote:NOT.

*Phone Rings*
"Hello? Oh... Yes... I see... okay...."
*Hangs up*

1992 just called, they want that back.


In all seriousness, Anything/anyone should be able to pray to anything/anyone they want to at a person's funeral. Regardless of if they want to pray to God, The Devil, Charlie Sheen, The Sun, or even Charles Manson, it doesn't matter. Free speech is free speech is free speech. Done.

dicion wrote: In all seriousness, Anything/anyone should be able to pray to anything/anyone they want to at a person's funeral. Regardless of if they want to pray to God, The Devil, Charlie Sheen, The Sun, or even Charles Manson, it doesn't matter. Free speech is free speech is free speech. Done.

And those non-family members present should be polite enough to understand that the family's and deceased's beliefs may not match their own, and understand. If they aren't that enlightened, they should not attend. The ceremony is not for them, its for the family.

I think the title of this thread is misleading in a way. There are two really issues here. First, can the word "God" be used at a public event, or a private event on public property? Second, can the name "Jesus" be used in prayer at such an event? These are two separate and distinct occurrences. In the first issue, of course God can be referred to. The county was founded on the principles that there IS a "creator," God is all over our money, oaths, and other documents, and most (if not all) religions refer to a "God."

The article discussed two separate events. Private funerals, and a public Memorial Day event. As for private funerals, so do as you please. In the second event, it's public, and some respect for other' views should prevail.

In the second issue, I believe it's not "if" you use the name "Jesus," but "how" you use the name in prayer at a public event. I believe the controversy in the article referencing Jesus was about a public Memorial Day ceremony, and not a private funeral. I will not debate the legalities of it, but I will point out the appropriateness of it IMHO only. If a Minister or Priest of the Christian faith is leading a payer at a public place at a public event and says, In Jesus' name we pray" at the end, I think that is disrespectful to those in attendance who are not of the Christian faith, and who do not pray in Jesus' name. I don't think many Christians would be very happy if a Muslim religious leader led a prayer at a public event on gov't property, and said, "In Mohammed's name we pray." However, the use of the name Jesus in a prayer that makes no inference to "we" is perfectly acceptable IMHO. In the case of the article in the OP, it does not say "how" the name Jesus was used.

In the end, at least to me, it's a simple question of respect for all believers and non-believers at a public event based on the fact that even the most religious in this county have a variety of beliefs that are not all based on Christianity. So again, it's not "if" Jesus' name is used in a public prayer, it's all about "how" it's used.

What would they do if the deceased's name really was Jesus, though?

Jasonw560 wrote:What would they do if the deceased's name really was Jesus, though?

Then it would be pronounced "Hey-Soos" and there would be no problem

TxRVer wrote:

psijac wrote:

hangfour wrote:This topic leaves me kind of speechless ...

On the one hand, if the Houston National Cemetery is government. property and wars are for the benefit of the government. then, if the government. is not supposed to favor any religion, leaving the word Jesus out of services makes some sense.

The 1st Amendment promises freedom of religion not freedom FROM religion. They haven't banned Allah, or Muhammad from pray, this story would be completely different if they did

The libs have been calling for separation of church and state for so long, people are starting to believe it's in the constitution. Here's the first amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Common sense left the building many moons ago. The 1st Amendment was written that way because Henry the 8th created the Church of England in order to secure the divorce that the Pope would not give him. Old Henry effectively foisted a "new" religion on a whole country. Our founding fathers did not want this (and many other) remnants of the English state to be copied in the U.S. The language of the amendment was intended to prevent state-sponsored religion that would benefit the narrow interests of whomever was in office at the time.

Of course, this historical context has been entirely lost in the rather small-minded legal twisting that has brought us to the point where uttering anything religious in any proximity (physical or otherwise) to a governmental institution is found to be unconstitutional.

Rex B wrote:

Jasonw560 wrote:What would they do if the deceased's name really was Jesus, though?

Then it would be pronounced "Hey-Soos" and there would be no problem

It's OK to say Zeus and Thor but not Jesus?

I could be wrong, but are these not people funerals? The family should be able to have said whatever they want to have said at their loved ones funeral. Period end of story. For heavens sakes these are grieving families if they want to invoke a deity who is the VA to say otherwise. People should be able to pray as they want and have whatever they want said at their funeral. The VA needs to butt out.

Couple things:

G26ster wrote:and most (if not all) religions refer to a "god."

fixed that for you. There is only one true God. The same one btw, that the greatest country in the world was founded on.

G26ster wrote:I don't think many Christians would be very happy if a Muslim religious leader led a prayer at a public event on gov't property, and said, "In Mohammed's name we pray.

I for one, would certainly not be happy. I, however, would not attend a funeral in Baghdad and expect to hear someone praying to God.

G26ster wrote:If a Minister or Priest of the Christian faith is leading a payer at a public place at a public event and says, In Jesus' name we pray" at the end, I think that is disrespectful to those in attendance who are not of the Christian faith

So if he said "In Jesus name I pray" that would be ok with Arleen Ocasio? I bet not. I also don't see how this is disrespectful. If he got up and said "in Jesus name we pray, and Mohammed is a false god"...although true, that would be disrespectful.

G26ster wrote:In the end, at least to me, it's a simple question of respect for all believers and non-believers at a public event based on the fact that even the most religious in this county have a variety of beliefs that are not all based on Christianity.

My denomination holds conventions and what-not at public venues all the time. If you go in there, guess what, you are going to get preached to. If an atheist, or Muslim, or whatever walked in, according to you, we should (at that point) no longer be allowed to pray. And if we do, then we are being disrespectful.

I believe the deceased should be allowed whatever type of funeral they(or the family) wants. Others that attend should have no "say-so" in what transpires. If they don't like it, don't go.

Just my opinions.

IMO, it not a matter of commen sence since reasonable poeple can disagree.

I think that part of the issue is that many people feel that the government is encroaching on their "rights" when they are unable to do something they feel they have the right to do. Yes, if you boil it down to a singular issue- you have the right to say anything you want in public or at a public funeral. But this is far from a singular issue.

SlickTX wrote:

TxRVer wrote:

psijac wrote:

hangfour wrote:This topic leaves me kind of speechless ...

On the one hand, if the Houston National Cemetery is government. property and wars are for the benefit of the government. then, if the government. is not supposed to favor any religion, leaving the word Jesus out of services makes some sense.

The 1st Amendment promises freedom of religion not freedom FROM religion. They haven't banned Allah, or Muhammad from pray, this story would be completely different if they did

The libs have been calling for separation of church and state for so long, people are starting to believe it's in the constitution. Here's the first amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Common sense left the building many moons ago. The 1st Amendment was written that way because Henry the 8th created the Church of England in order to secure the divorce that the Pope would not give him. Old Henry effectively foisted a "new" religion on a whole country. Our founding fathers did not want this (and many other) remnants of the English state to be copied in the U.S. The language of the amendment was intended to prevent state-sponsored religion that would benefit the narrow interests of whomever was in office at the time.

Of course, this historical context has been entirely lost in the rather small-minded legal twisting that has brought us to the point where uttering anything religious in any proximity (physical or otherwise) to a governmental institution is found to be unconstitutional.

Bulldog1911 wrote:Couple things:

G26ster wrote:and most (if not all) religions refer to a "god."

fixed that for you. There is only one true God. The same one btw, that the greatest country in the world was founded on.

That is only your opinion. There is no state religion in the U.S. " I see the term "Creator" in the Declaration, and the name "God" in oaths and on our currency. I don't see anything in the Declaration or the Constitution, or elsewhere about "one true God." And by the way, that "one true God" is also the God of the Jewish faith, who do not pray in Jesus' name.

G26ster wrote:I don't think many Christians would be very happy if a Muslim religious leader led a prayer at a public event on gov't property, and said, "In Mohammed's name we pray.

Bulldog1911 wrote:I for one, would certainly not be happy. I, however, would not attend a funeral in Baghdad and expect to hear someone praying to God.

How about at a public event by a gov't agency on gov't property in the U.S.? There are millions of followers of other religions in the U.S.

G26ster wrote:If a Minister or Priest of the Christian faith is leading a payer at a public place at a public event and says, In Jesus' name we pray" at the end, I think that is disrespectful to those in attendance who are not of the Christian faith

Bulldog1911 wrote:So if he said "In Jesus name I pray" that would be ok with Arleen Ocasio? I bet not. I also don't see how this is disrespectful. If he got up and said "in Jesus name we pray, and Mohammed is a false god"...although true, that would be disrespectful.

I have no idea what would be acceptable to Arleen Ocasio. I am not of the Christian faith. I think it is presumptuous, if not disrespectful, for another person to include me in a prayer in a public ceremony by a gov't agency (not a private funeral) and imply that I am praying in Jesus' name by using the phrase "in Jesus' name we pray."

G26ster wrote:In the end, at least to me, it's a simple question of respect for all believers and non-believers at a public event based on the fact that even the most religious in this county have a variety of beliefs that are not all based on Christianity.

Bulldog1911 wrote:My denomination holds conventions and what-not at public venues all the time. If you go in there, guess what, you are going to get preached to. If an atheist, or Muslim, or whatever walked in, according to you, we should (at that point) no longer be allowed to pray. And if we do, then we are being disrespectful.

I was only addressing the public gov't sanctioned Memorial Day ceremony on gov't property, not a private denominational event on public land. That's where the article said the reference to Jesus took place. And I only said I would find it disrespectful to non-Christians if the phrase "In Jesus' name we pray" was used.

Bulldog1911 wrote:I believe the deceased should be allowed whatever type of funeral they(or the family) wants. Others that attend should have no "say-so" in what transpires. If they don't like it, don't go.

I specifically stated that private events or funerals were not what I was talking about. I have no problem at all with that venue, nor should I.

Bulldog1911 wrote:Just my opinions.

And I have mine. We should both be respectful of each others' views and beliefs or non-beliefs. Once again, I want to make it clear I am only addressing gov't sponsored public events on gov't property.