Scenario: Strange tow truck in your driveway.

[cyphur]

If someone tried to jack my truck, I'd let them. I have second vehicle, its fully insured(and always paid on time to boot...)

However, if someone tried to take my wife's car, I'd shoot. Its always paid on time, and its fully insured, but for whatever reason, if I need to take my kids somewhere(god forbid in an emergency) it is our only way to accomplish that if I can't wait for an ambulance. So, I'd shoot.

[txinvestigator]

With regard to use of deadly force, the Texas Penal Code says you shouldn't if:
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means;

That is to read your MAY be justified if (3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means;

As stated above, tow trucks have the name and number plastered on every fender, door, and bumper and it wouldn't be too hard to recover the vehicle.

Actually, many repo trucks use covert tow mechanisms where the tow arm stows in the bed of the truck. It looks like any old truck until the operator prepares to hook up.

This is an interesting thread. Is a tow truck driver committing a crime when he hooks up to a vehicle not his own and tows it away, even at the bequest of the lienholder?

Texas law is pretty specific about theft;


Texas Penal Code
§31.03. Theft.

(a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates
property with intent to deprive the owner of property.

Seems pretty straightforward. If he hooks up my car his intent is to deprive me of the property.

Appropriate means;


31.03
(b) Appropriation of property is unlawful if:

(1) it is without the owner's effective consent;

Humm.... If your contract has a clause where you agreed to have the vehicle picked up if you defaulted, then you DID give consent. So the appropriation of the vehicle was not unlawful; hence, the tow operator was not committing theft.


However, the police will not enforce a repo unless the driver has in his possession a Writ of Sequestration, which is court order to secure the vehicle.

Generally if the police are called and arrive prior to the tow truck leaving with the vehicle, then the police will order the driver to release the vehicle because you are the registered owner, and the tow truck driver has no way to prove he has a right to the vehicle.

In addition, here is a little known law that applies to financed or leased vehicles;


§32.33. Hindering secured creditors.

(a) For purposes of this section:

(1) "Remove" means transport, without the effective consent
of the secured party, from the state in which the property was located
when the security interest or lien attached.

(2) "Security interest" means an interest in personal
property or fixtures that secures payment or performance of an
obligation.

(b) A person who has signed a security agreement creating a
security interest in property or a mortgage or deed of trust creating
a lien on property commits an offense if, with intent to hinder
enforcement of that interest or lien, he destroys, removes, conceals,
encumbers, or otherwise harms or reduces the value of the property.

(c) For purposes of this section, a person is presumed to
have intended to hinder enforcement of the security interest or lien
if, when any part of the debt secured by the security interest or lien
was due, he failed:

(1) to pay the part then due; and

(2) if the secured party had made demand, to deliver
possession of the secured property to the secured party.

[kauboy]

With regard to use of deadly force, the Texas Penal Code says you shouldn't if:
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means;

That is to read your MAY be justified if (3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means;

Right! That "if" should have been an "unless". Thanks for the clear up TXI.

[Braden]

I'd kind of like to have a new truck anyway so if someone wants it that bad then it's all theirs. That's what insurance is for.

Kidding aside, even though the law may allow it I personally would not shoot someone over a material thing. I respect other's right to do so, but for me no material possession is worth taking someone's life over.

The only exceptions to that statement that I can think of would involve situations where the other person was putting the life of me or my family in danger, such as carjacking while my wife or kids are in the car or arson while my family is in the house.

[Chris]

I'd kind of like to have a new truck anyway so if someone wants it that bad then it's all theirs. That's what insurance is for.

Kidding aside, even though the law may allow it I personally would not shoot someone over a material thing. I respect other's right to do so, but for me no material possession is worth taking someone's life over.

The only exceptions to that statement that I can think of would involve situations where the other person was putting the life of me or my family in danger, such as carjacking while my wife or kids are in the car or arson while my family is in the house.

let me throw this out there...

you are standing in your driveway with a clear bead on the bad guy, who is in your car just a few feet away. you opt against the shot.

later, you see your car on the news. your car, while running from police, plowed into a family of 4 in an intersection. two are dead, two are in critical condition, and bad guy flees on foot.

i'm not saying i'd shoot someone in the face for stealing my car, but would you have any regrets about not shooting?

[Flatland2D]

I had my car stolen earlier this year (right after I got my CHL actually). Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) there was no confrontation involved. There was no tow truck either, just joyrider thieves.

After this happened I got thinking more about what I would have done if I saw the scum taking my car. I don't think I would shoot now (unless drawn upon after yelling at them), and probably wouldn't have then. Although, I much like to think that I can protect my belongings, and I'm sure everyone here can remember how attached they felt to their car when they were 22.

I didn't have insurance covering theft. Just the bare minimum to drive. I would have been out a lot of money had my car never showed up again. It was found later that day. Some parts were missing, totaling about $1,000. Ultimately though, a happy ending, as my car means a lot to me and there was so much more they could have taken and didn't.

I have to say I don't feel like calling the cops would be all that useful in stopping the crime. By the time they could verify the tow truck company or get officers on scene, they would be long gone. It takes repo men a matter of seconds to haul a car off. And based from my experience with SAPD, derived from multiple interactions with them, they really don't care about finding the thieves so you can seek retribution for yours losses. Not unless the low-life thieves are found on the scene or the case is otherwise handed to them. If you have ample insurance to replace your car then that's great, but I wouldn't put all my faith in letting the cops sort it out. I unfortunately still don't have that alternative.

I now have a high end car alarm system with multiple layers of protection and I sleep with my remote pager by my bed every night.

[txinvestigator]

I'd kind of like to have a new truck anyway so if someone wants it that bad then it's all theirs. That's what insurance is for.

Kidding aside, even though the law may allow it I personally would not shoot someone over a material thing. I respect other's right to do so, but for me no material possession is worth taking someone's life over.

The only exceptions to that statement that I can think of would involve situations where the other person was putting the life of me or my family in danger, such as carjacking while my wife or kids are in the car or arson while my family is in the house.

let me throw this out there...

you are standing in your driveway with a clear bead on the bad guy, who is in your car just a few feet away. you opt against the shot.

later, you see your car on the news. your car, while running from police, plowed into a family of 4 in an intersection. two are dead, two are in critical condition, and bad guy flees on foot.

i'm not saying i'd shoot someone in the face for stealing my car, but would you have any regrets about not shooting?

none.

[HighVelocity]

you are standing in your driveway with a clear bead on the bad guy, who is in your car just a few feet away. you opt against the shot.

later, you see your car on the news. your car, while running from police, plowed into a family of 4 in an intersection. two are dead, two are in critical condition, and bad guy flees on foot.

i'm not saying i'd shoot someone in the face for stealing my car, but would you have any regrets about not shooting

Or you take the shot, miss and your bullet goes through a neighbors window and kills a child.
Speculating about "what if" is bad medicine anyway you look at it.

[txinvestigator]

I have to say I don't feel like calling the cops would be all that useful in stopping the crime. By the time they could verify the tow truck company or get officers on scene, they would be long gone. It takes repo men a matter of seconds to haul a car off. And based from my experience with SAPD, derived from multiple interactions with them, they really don't care about finding the thieves so you can seek retribution for yours losses. Not unless the low-life thieves are found on the scene or the case is otherwise handed to them. If you have ample insurance to replace your car then that's great, but I wouldn't put all my faith in letting the cops sort it out. I unfortunately still don't have that alternative

I agree. I was just pointing out that repos are not clear cut.

My wife's car was stolen back in '92. It was paid for too. We recovered it a day later with a missing radio, ink stains on the rear seat, and a bag of weed under the front seat.

[KBCraig]

Texas law is pretty specific about theft;


Texas Penal Code
§31.03. Theft.

(a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates
property with intent to deprive the owner of property.

Ah, but who owns a vehicle which has a title secured by a lender's lien? The title is jointly in the name of the lender and the purchaser, isn't it?

Kevin

[Braden]

To Chris:

Would I have regrets in that situation? I'm certain I would, but ultimately anything that the BAD guy does that might hurt or kill someone is HIS decision and not mine. I didn't ASK him to steal my car and run into a family of 4 while running from the police. It would definitely be an tragic situation, but their blood would be on his head and not mine. In that situation there is no way I could have foreseen what was going to happen.

By the same token, I could take the shot and he could punch the gas and drive through the wall of my neighbor's house killing their two children in the front bedroom. Would I have regrets about that? Most definitely. Three people would be dead because I wasn't willing to let a criminal get away with stealing from me.

We can "what if" the situation all day long, but the bottom line is that we have no way of knowing what's going to happen after we take the shot...or after we don't.

As I said before, to me a material possession is not worth taking the life of another human being. If someone else feels differently then that is their prerogative.

[txinvestigator]

Texas law is pretty specific about theft;


Texas Penal Code
§31.03. Theft.

(a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates
property with intent to deprive the owner of property.

Ah, but who owns a vehicle which has a title secured by a lender's lien? The title is jointly in the name of the lender and the purchaser, isn't it?

Kevin

For civil purposes I think so. for theft, the title shows the owner and the lienholder. A lienholder is usually a company. It would be difficult for a lienholder to show proof of right to the vehicle minus a writ. Agreed?

[txinvestigator]

To Chris:

Would I have regrets in that situation? I'm certain I would, but ultimately anything that the BAD guy does that might hurt or kill someone is HIS decision and not mine. I didn't ASK him to steal my car and run into a family of 4 while running from the police. It would definitely be an tragic situation, but their blood would be on his head and not mine. In that situation there is no way I could have foreseen what was going to happen.

By the same token, I could take the shot and he could punch the gas and drive through the wall of my neighbor's house killing their two children in the front bedroom. Would I have regrets about that? Most definitely. Three people would be dead because I wasn't willing to let a criminal get away with stealing from me.

We can "what if" the situation all day long, but the bottom line is that we have no way of knowing what's going to happen after we take the shot...or after we don't.

As I said before, to me a material possession is not worth taking the life of another human being. If someone else feels differently then that is their prerogative.

That is a decision I have already made too. I believe I have a moral, ethical and biblical responsibiity to protect my life. I have the same responsibility to my family.

Those same morals and beliefs prevent me from taking a life over stuff.

[casselthief]

and a bag of weed under the front seat.

well, least you had something to calm you down about the whole affair
back to
I think the key, for my personal scenario, is to hold the "repo man" at gunpoint (if necesary) until the fuzz gets there.
he moves, shoulda picked a different line of work.


and it's not necesarily about my car, truck, bycicle.
it's the principality. it's mine, you don't deserve to be able to simply take it.
you want one, earn it.
or get sweet hot lead.
see also the reason I'm on this site. you don't know what alterior motives a thief may have, once in your smoove ride.

[The Marshal]

That is a decision I have already made too. I believe I have a moral, ethical and biblical responsibiity to protect my life. I have the same responsibility to my family.

Those same morals and beliefs prevent me from taking a life over stuff.

Well said.
My thoughts exactly.

I pray (!!) that I will never pull my pistol for anything but practice.
I practice that should I be forced to, I won't miss.

~Bill