TexasCHLforum.com

C-dub wrote:

speedsix wrote:

C-dub wrote:Ron, would you ask your LEO friend if a gunbuster sign is enough? It clearly states the business owners intent.

...much as I love the police...I don't ask 'em what the law is...I often know better than a lot of them do...I take the time to read it...

I would hope and expect his friend to say that the gunbuster sign was not enough. If he does he has fallen into the trap. If he says that it must be the correct wording then the follow up question would be to ask why is the wording critical, but the size is not.

Or he could just be tremendously stubborn.

2firfun50 wrote:As a new CHL holder (2 months) I find these discussions quite entertaining. Personally, I let my common sense guide me and follow one simple guideline. "If I can't carry, you pay me." If I see a sign that gives me even a whiff that a CHL holder is not welcome, I take my business elsewhere. I know there are exceptions such as areas clearly addressed in the law, but it works well in everyday activities. The majority of business I need to conduct can be done with businesses that want my money.

It really bothers me that CHL holders present an attitude that its ok to go somewhere they aren't welcome just because the I's aren't dotted, or the T's aren't crossed. Real BGs walk free with the same attitude only to continue to present a threat to society. We all may make mistakes and inadvertently miss a sign. It happens. I don't mind "no carry" at gun shows, too much opportunity for a negligent discharge.

If we behave ethically, we set a higher standard for the general population and will be much more successful in our journey.

I'll get off my soapbox now

jimlongley wrote:If the business owner's intent was to keep CHL holders from entering while armed, then he should have followed the law, at least that's what I hope the judge's attitude would be. That's something I hadn't considered in prior debates, most of which have stopped, with a great deal of confidence, at the officer being (wrong, over enthusiastic, under informed) with the assumption that the judge would set it right. So suppose the judge is nominally anti-rights, or an activist who thinks that all signage should be obeyed without regard for legislative intent.

Once again I find my own attitude reinforced: If there is a 30.06 sign, no matter how non-compliant; Stop! Do not enter; Card them, find out the owner's name and mailing address, etc and let them know you are boycotting them and why, and if their sign is not compliant, educate them, even if it means they decide to comply and put up a real sign, they are anti-rights and don't deserve your business.

And for those of you who think that the non-compliant signs are just a way for pro carry folks to cater to the antis with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" posting that will make everyone happy, here's another scenario.

You are patronizing the establishment with the non-compliant sign, and Mrs. DooGood is there with her little brat running out of control while mom ignores it. Brat comes charging up and head butts you right on the holster, pulling your cover garment away so that all may see your carry piece. Brat goes crying to mommy, "Dat nasty person hav a gun and hit me wid it." and mommy, not management, calls the cops. The cops get there, and you explain the situation, and it only takes a couple of minutes of observation to note that the kid has since head butted one officer, mommy three times, and a wall, for them to decide you didn't threaten anyone and refuse to arrest.

But they did notice the sign on the way in, and despite their sympathy for the situation that led to it, arrest you for violating the 30.06 sign.

Nope, they don't deserve my money.

I have had a similar scenario with a child running wild in Home Depot, who rammed me in my harmonica pocket, denting my C harp, and went crying to mommy that I hurt him. (I really do carry several harmonicas, in my Tru-Specs, right thigh pocket.)

rtschl wrote:I had discussion with a retired LEO acquaintance who teaches CHL regarding 30.06 notice. I made the statement that invalid signs are not enforceable though adding that "you may not beat the ride, but you most likely would earn the rap". Specifically, we were discussing a national pizza chain for kids that now has 30.06 signs, correctly worded in both English and Spanish, in block letters in contrasting colors. However, the letters are not at least 1" in height as required by 30.06 but about 1/2". This person was adamant that it doesn't matter. The judge is going to ask did you read the sign and if so then you understood what they meant, and therefore have been given effective notice (especially since I mentioned that I actually measured the sign in question). I said that I would never say that I measured a sign if arrested... that's volunteering information no one but my attorney needs. I said I do the following when entering any building and this is what would be in my statement and/or testimony: I always look for a sign that has contrasting block letters that are at least 1" in height. If I don't see any, I don't continue to look further.

I was then told that people with CHL's have been convicted even though signs are not compliant. "Judges don't care if a sign is compliant or the intent of the law. They care if you saw the sign." My point is even if you have a judge that ignores the statute, an appeals court or Texas Supreme Court would (hopefully) overturn a conviction where a judge clearly ignored the statute. I gave up trying to convince the person since we were leaving. I would have asked for the cases where someone has been convicted with a non-compliant sign but I was getting the impression that this was "LEO interpretation" of the law (no offense meant officers).

So, does anyone know of a CHL holder being convicted in Texas for violating a non-compliant 30.06 sign? Does anyone agree that an invalid sign is still legally enforceable as effective notice?

Thanks,

Ron

LSL wrote:Q1 - How am I suppose to know LEGALLY whether a CHL carry is forbidden?

LSL wrote:As a newbie -- I want to be very careful, so I look and I look again. But two questions to add to the discussion.

1) Sunday, I was in an ice house which serves food as well as beer & spirits over the weekend. While NOT carrying, I walked all three entry doors and and saw no "30.06" nor "51%" signs. I also looked inside -- no signage that was taught at my CHL class.
As I left at the end of the day, I did see a small -- it would fit inside an 8 inch circle -- "No handguns allowed" sign.
By law, this means nothing ... . Also, expecting a "51%" sign and not seeing one -- here comes the question --
Q1 - How am I suppose to know LEGALLY whether a CHL carry is forbidden?

2) Searching the forum for threads re: Reliant Park / Houston Rodeo / Reliant Center -- etc., I see conflicting posts.
**** My question excludes times of Professional/High School or College Sporting events in the stadium. ****

Searching and looking this Harris County owned facility -- entry gates, doorways, entrances -- all over the place, I find no "30.06" signs of any size.
Above one entryway at Reliant Center -- about 18 feet above the ground -- there is a "Rules" list that includes: "Subject to search;" "No ticket reselling;" "Must show proof of age to by alcohol;" "Shirts and shoes;" and "No outside food or drinks," "no illegal drugs," "no laser pointers allowed."

In that list is a line that reads:
"Weapons of any kind including possession of a handgun under the Authority of the Texas Concealed Handgun License Law are not permitted." Again, no signage that was taught at my CHL class.

Q2- Is CHL licensed possesion of a firearm permitted in Reliant Park / Reliant Center / Reliant Arena [i.e., nonsporting events not in the stadium]?

redlin67 wrote:I know that I have talked about this place before, but I still smile a little whenever I see it. At the AMC Willowbrook, there is a small 8"x11" set of 30.06 signs in english and spanish. The are on the right side entrance way above the doors. Very hard to see unless you are looking for them and almost impossible to read unless you stand almost directly beneath them and look up. I know that they are there, but I think it would be difficult to prosecute with the way they are posted. I just go in the left entrance, therefor I am ingnorant to any kind of notice.

snatchel wrote:AMC in Parks Marll, Arlington is posted in the bottom left corner of the ticket booth. I knew they had one somewhere... but it took me 10 minutes to find it. I didn't carry becuase I expected a larger, direct sign. I could have avoided it and pleaded ignorance if I had used the automated ticket machines...

(2) received notice that:

"(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if ..."

RPB wrote:I hate ambiguous signs .... took me 3 days to drive from Houston to Austin because every few miles was this sign "Clean restrooms ahead" and after cleaning them all I was sooo tired ....

I don't want to have to guess a business owner's intent ... that's why the Statute list the elements "that notice must be received" (not that the intent on a sign must almost convey the owner's wishes) then lists the exact conditions under which "notice is received"

Nothing vague or ambiguous or confusing about it.
If they want to post a 30.06 sign, they can, the specifications are simple and all listed on one place.
If they instead wish to post anything else, necessarily conveys to me that it's a "feel good sign" and the owner wishes that I'd be armed but be quiet about it so people "feel good"

2firfun50 wrote:As a new CHL holder (2 months) I find these discussions quite entertaining. Personally, I let my common sense guide me and follow one simple guideline. "If I can't carry, you pay me." If I see a sign that gives me even a whiff that a CHL holder is not welcome, I take my business elsewhere. I know there are exceptions such as areas clearly addressed in the law, but it works well in everyday activities. The majority of business I need to conduct can be done with businesses that want my money.

It really bothers me that CHL holders present an attitude that its ok to go somewhere they aren't welcome just because the I's aren't dotted, or the T's aren't crossed. Real BGs walk free with the same attitude only to continue to present a threat to society. We all may make mistakes and inadvertently miss a sign. It happens. I don't mind "no carry" at gun shows, too much opportunity for a negligent discharge.

If we behave ethically, we set a higher standard for the general population and will be much more successful in our journey.

I'll get off my soapbox now

2firfun50 wrote:It really bothers me that CHL holders present an attitude that its ok to go somewhere they aren't welcome

speedsix wrote:

jimlongley wrote:If the business owner's intent was to keep CHL holders from entering while armed, then he should have followed the law, at least that's what I hope the judge's attitude would be. That's something I hadn't considered in prior debates, most of which have stopped, with a great deal of confidence, at the officer being (wrong, over enthusiastic, under informed) with the assumption that the judge would set it right. So suppose the judge is nominally anti-rights, or an activist who thinks that all signage should be obeyed without regard for legislative intent.

Once again I find my own attitude reinforced: If there is a 30.06 sign, no matter how non-compliant; Stop! Do not enter; Card them, find out the owner's name and mailing address, etc and let them know you are boycotting them and why, and if their sign is not compliant, educate them, even if it means they decide to comply and put up a real sign, they are anti-rights and don't deserve your business.

And for those of you who think that the non-compliant signs are just a way for pro carry folks to cater to the antis with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" posting that will make everyone happy, here's another scenario.

You are patronizing the establishment with the non-compliant sign, and Mrs. DooGood is there with her little brat running out of control while mom ignores it. Brat comes charging up and head butts you right on the holster, pulling your cover garment away so that all may see your carry piece. Brat goes crying to mommy, "Dat nasty person hav a gun and hit me wid it." and mommy, not management, calls the cops. The cops get there, and you explain the situation, and it only takes a couple of minutes of observation to note that the kid has since head butted one officer, mommy three times, and a wall, for them to decide you didn't threaten anyone and refuse to arrest.

But they did notice the sign on the way in, and despite their sympathy for the situation that led to it, arrest you for violating the 30.06 sign.

Nope, they don't deserve my money.

I have had a similar scenario with a child running wild in Home Depot, who rammed me in my harmonica pocket, denting my C harp, and went crying to mommy that I hurt him. (I really do carry several harmonicas, in my Tru-Specs, right thigh pocket.)

...that is not a scenario...that is a dream...what a reach!!!...principles still stand...carry within the law, like we are supposed to, and if it happened like you painted it...a principle still applies...cops are to ENFORCE the law AS IT IS WRITTEN...NOT as THEY feel about it...they have no more business arresting me for carrying where there is a non-compliant sign than they would for writing me a ticket for going past a purple sign with 35 MPH written on it...the same law that tells me to follow the speed limit prescribes what the speed limit sign SHALL look like...if it doesn't...I haven't broken the law...you can dream up any number of WHAT IF situations...bottom line is did I follow the law??? did the posting store??? that's why we HAVE law...so we both know where we stand...and the cops have to follow THE LAW, too...they have no authority to arrest us when we haven't broken a law...and if we have backbone, they can be punished in court for doing it...we don't live in a police state...and we don't have to run scared...when will we all realize this?????????

...as to your C harp...carry a BUG instead and the kid'll get a headache but you'll suffer no loss...