Bench Rest Shooting

[glbedd53]

I know it could be a fluke, but I have a Savage .308 Tactical that won't group. Either one of my ARs will out shoot it.

[PeteCamp]

So what I'm hearing is that Savage is a better off the shelf rifle than a Remington.

Appreciate the input.

No...that isn't what I'm saying. Although there is no doubt the Savage Target Series will outshoot all but highly tuned Remingtons. Certainly any factory rifle can be made to shoot quite a bit better with careful tuning and match barrels. I have no experience with the Remington Target Tactical or XCR Tactical Long Range - although I absolutely abhor Remington's triangular barrel design.

I own a Rem 700 5R SS Mil-Spec that shoots on par with any of the better factory rifles and on a good day, with it's favorite ammo, will give good rifles a run for their money at extended ranges. (Of course, I have $1K on top of the cost of the rifle without counting the optics.) But make no mistake, the difference between a factory anything and something like a GA Precision is enormous. Most people assume a 1/2 MOA (1/2 inch at 100 yards) group is easily achievable. And one here and there is. But they never take their rifle out beyond that 100 yards and see what kind of groups (not just one or two exceptional ones here and there) it will deliver repeatedly at extended ranges. That is where the expertise in building, expensive tuning and parts make a difference.

My point about Savages is that you can get an acceptably shooting rifle for (usually) less money than others. You cannot buy an Indianapolis 500 car off the showroom floor. There are rifles from all the major manufacturers that shoot well - a few very well, and there are some that are dogs. I cannot tell you absolutely that you won't get one from a major manufacturer. There are some besides Remington and Savage, but some models are in the price league of a GA or other real precision built rifle and won't hold a candle to them.

This is all just my observations based on a half century of shooting precision rifles and you know what opinions are worth.

Edit to add: TAM is right. Remember though. He is a handsome devil and likes his rifles to match his appearance. Me? I'm just not in his league!

[PeteCamp]

I know it could be a fluke, but I have a Savage .308 Tactical that won't group. Either one of my ARs will out shoot it.

There are literally a thousand things that can keep a rifle from shooting well. Everything from using the absolue best match ammo to choice of rings, scope, stock, proper inletting and bedding, the list is long and boring. I would sit down and make sure it has a real problem and not just something simple. If it really has a problem, send it to Savage. They used to have a Tech expert named Joe LeGrande who really is an expert. See if he is still there and can advise you. Well worth the phone call. Good luck.

[Rugerboy50]

So what I'm hearing is that Savage is a better off the shelf rifle than a Remington.

Appreciate the input.

No...that isn't what I'm saying. Although there is no doubt the Savage Target Series will outshoot all but highly tuned Remingtons. Certainly any factory rifle can be made to shoot quite a bit better with careful tuning and match barrels. I have no experience with the Remington Target Tactical or XCR Tactical Long Range - although I absolutely abhor Remington's triangular barrel design.

I own a Rem 700 5R SS Mil-Spec that shoots on par with any of the better factory rifles and on a good day, with it's favorite ammo, will give good rifles a run for their money at extended ranges. (Of course, I have $1K on top of the cost of the rifle without counting the optics.) But make no mistake, the difference between a factory anything and something like a GA Precision is enormous. Most people assume a 1/2 MOA (1/2 inch at 100 yards) group is easily achievable. And one here and there is. But they never take their rifle out beyond that 100 yards and see what kind of groups (not just one or two exceptional ones here and there) it will deliver repeatedly at extended ranges. That is where the expertise in building, expensive tuning and parts make a difference.

My point about Savages is that you can get an acceptably shooting rifle for (usually) less money than others. You cannot buy an Indianapolis 500 car off the showroom floor. There are rifles from all the major manufacturers that shoot well - a few very well, and there are some that are dogs. I cannot tell you absolutely that you won't get one from a major manufacturer. There are some besides Remington and Savage, but some models are in the price league of a GA or other real precision built rifle and won't hold a candle to them.

This is all just my observations based on a half century of shooting precision rifles and you know what opinions are worth.

Edit to add: TAM is right. Remember though. He is a handsome devil and likes his rifles to match his appearance. Me? I'm just not in his league!

I understand your point and it's appreciated.

I'm entry level and am looking for something that will not break the bank but will enjoy shooting and getting decent groups out to 300 yards.

I'm a middle of the road kind of guy and like finding quality products in that realm.

Savage Tactical model 10 FLCP-K currently has my attention and i have a few feelers out. I'm sure other models will come along.

I've also looked at a stag arms left hand model but I've basically deciaded against the AR platform .

What's the best magnification scope for 300 yards?

[RECIT]

In that same price range I would take a look at FN tactical series. They seem to get some good reviews online.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... le+Box+Mag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just to add some more options/confusion to the mix.

[PeteCamp]

What's the best magnification scope for 300 yards?

Most of my guns have 10x or greater scopes to go out to longer ranges. There should be more research in choosing your scope than even your rifle because a poor quality scope negates a quality gun. Same thing for the base (if needed) and the scope mounts. A good place to start your research here:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... =19&page=1

The Optics Selection sticky should be required reading. Then go to the Optics FAQ's and well...be prepared for a long visit. Snacks and a cool glass of iced tea or whatever.

I have budget performers and not-so budget performer scopes. Best bang for the buck is the Super Sniper from SWFA and the Millet TRS-1. I have both and either one will serve you well, but read first.

[SRH78]

Imo, you really can't go wrong with either one. Both are very accurate. I believe the Savages are a little more accurate but the Remingtons have more accessories available. Both my Savages will shoot moa or better with anything I feed them and much better with loads they like. My 110 in 30-06, which has a lightweight barrel, is easily a .25 moa rifle at 100 yards and has done even better. My 12 in 22-250 will put an entire 40 round box of Winchester white box into a group you can cover with a dime every time. My brother's 700 ADL in 270 is also very accurate. It is easily a consistent .5 moa rifle. I have shot a few other Remingtons and none failed to shoot moa or better, including a pump. Again, I would choose Savage but either rifle with a good trigger, a good scope, and a cool barrel will shoot well if you do your part.

[The Annoyed Man]

I have budget performers and not-so budget performer scopes. Best bang for the buck is the Super Sniper from SWFA and the Millet TRS-1. I have both and either one will serve you well, but read first.

I don't have any experience with the less expensive Super Snipers, but the scope I have mounted on the M1A I have for sale HERE is a 10x42 HD fixed power Super Sniper and I am VERY impressed with it for the price. I paid $800 for it from SWFA, and the quality, precision of adjustments, clarity of the glass, and ruggedness of build are eaily the equal of a scope costing $200-$300 more from a more "recognized" brand. My only complaint about it is that 10x fixed doesn't work for my eyes any longer. I don't know if I'm as old as PeteCamp (is anybody? ), but I'm old enough that I can't see my own toes that well anymore, and it isn't just my protruding midesection getting in the way. I will be looking for something in the 5-20x50mm range when I buy my new rifle, and either of the Super Sniper HD version of that scope at very reaonsable prices compared to the competition look like they would fit the bill. I will give them strong consideration when the time comes. I have no experience with the Millet TRS-1, so I can't speak to that. But definitely give the Super Sniper products a look. You'll find them at sfwa.com.

Generally speaking, folks tend to be willing to spend money on a rifle, but not so much on good optics for that rifle. I've never understood that. They also tend to emphasize magnification more than they do clarity of image. You can find all manner of inexpensive scopes that will magnify to huge power numbers, but you can't see as well through them because it is like looking through a dirty window. Although they have more powerful scopes available to them, Army and Marine snipers were standardized on 10X scopes for years. For all I know, they may still be. And that's for 800 to 1,000 yard shooting. So, is 10X enough for 300 yards? Most definitely.....if you have sharp eyes. Even a good 3-9x42 scope will be sufficient at that distance.....if the glass is nice and clear.

Also, if you are ever going to hunt with this rifle and scope combination, clear glass is very important because you'll probably take most of your game at dawn and dusk where good light transmission through the scope is going to be critical. You might even gain an extra 20-30 minutes of hunting at either end of the day.

Anyway, enjoy your new rifle, and pony up and spend as much as you can on a scope without being irresponsible, and don't "cheap out."

[WildBill]

It depends on your definition of good results.

It also depends on your definition of "Bench Rest Shooting". IMO, just because a rifle is shot from a sand bag from bench doesn't make it Bench Rest Shooting. I don't think that a bench rest rifle and optics are suitable for use as a hunting rifle. IMO, consistently shooting small groups at long distances is the only purpose of bench rest shooting. Bench rest doesn't equal varmit shooting.

[RECIT]

It depends on your definition of good results.

It also depends on your definition of "Bench Rest Shooting". IMO, just because a rifle is shot from a sand bag from bench doesn't make it Bench Rest Shooting. I don't think that a bench rest rifle and optics are suitable for use as a hunting rifle. IMO, consistently shooting small groups at long distances is the only purpose of bench rest shooting. Bench rest doesn't equal varmit shooting.

I see some of the old timers at my local range with wind-age flag set up all the way down the range, a portable re-loading bench, all kinds of technical data on spread sheets, and some of the strangest looking rifles I have ever seen. They are the mathematical bench rest shooters, and all they are interested in is TINY groups. I have seen some of their groups that were unsatisfactory to them, I would love to be able to come within 1/2" of that tight of a group.

A good precision rifle and a bench gun are two different thing IMHO. Both capable of being accurate, but how accurate is the question. Bench rest shooting is soooo scientific it is overwhelming to me honestly. It seems to take some of the fun out of shooting I think.

[PeteCamp]

Arrrgh....Well I can't see my toes either, but it's because I have chest-o-drawers disease. My chest fell into my drawers. I suppose if I lived in Japan I would be revered as a wise old man. Here I'm just an old...er...well whatever.

I probably should have cleared up what kind of equipment I was talking about before launching into rifles and scopes. My forays into long range shooting are not technically bench rest shooting. Here is a short list:

1. Bench rest - multi multi thousand dollar guns that weigh 40+ pounds and are extremely finicky creatures that must be hand fed a diet of ammo where each grain of powder is inspected, each gust of wind carefully noted and each bullet meticulously measured. The guns and shooters are a (my apologies) weird breed who drown themselves in minutae. I did this many years ago before it turned into a hobby that required you to spend every last dime on shooting.

2. Pseudo snipers - I guess that is me today. I enjoy the looks and performance of rifles that "might" be the same as those used by our military snipers (and some really are used by them). These guns are usually not as heavy and don't require the exotic diet of bench rest guns. They won't shoot as well, but don't cost $10-$15K either. However, these guns, because of barrel and stock weight, are designed to be shot from a rest - as are most larger caliber sniper weapons. Hence they live their lives on benches, like their exotic cousins.

3. Hunting rifles - some you young whippersnappers can undertake this. I need a helicopter. These guns are what you mostly see in gunstores.

So you have to decide what you really want to do. Then choose your rifle based on that.

[Rugerboy50]

Man i know how to start something learning my way around this forum and hobby.

Guess i fall into item # 2. That's basically what I'm out to accomplish. Don't want to be a upper end top gun and i want to be better than a tin can shooter.

Take a look at Savage model SKU 18609 and tell me where you think it falls. There are several other rifles in that category that i would like feed back on as well.

[threoh8]

Don't want to be a upper end top gun and i want to be better than a tin can shooter.

Hey, now! That's my favorite target you're talking about. There's lots to be learned from shooting tin cans. Typical cans are about the size of critical parts of various creatures, and cans give good feedback when hit. They're also cheap, readily available, easily portable, and fully recyclable! Oh, and they are fun, too.

Seriously, put a soda can out at 300 meters and see if you can hit it with a cold bore shot.

May I suggest that you look into NRA F-class Rifle competition as a training ground. Compete with yourself, and enjoy.

[RECIT]

Man i know how to start something learning my way around this forum and hobby.

Guess i fall into item # 2. That's basically what I'm out to accomplish. Don't want to be a upper end top gun and i want to be better than a tin can shooter.

Take a look at Savage model SKU 18609 and tell me where you think it falls. There are several other rifles in that category that i would like feed back on as well.

The model mentioned is in the pseudo sniper catagory. It is a very nice rifle and I have handled one at a local show. It was light weight and felt good. I did not get to work the action or feel the trigger b/c of the zip-ties on the gun at the show. It is a little plain looking but there are plenty of goodies to dress up a model 10.

[Rugerboy50]

Don't want to be a upper end top gun and i want to be better than a tin can shooter.

Hey, now! That's my favorite target you're talking about. There's lots to be learned from shooting tin cans. Typical cans are about the size of critical parts of various creatures, and cans give good feedback when hit. They're also cheap, readily available, easily portable, and fully recyclable! Oh, and they are fun, too.

Seriously, put a soda can out at 300 meters and see if you can hit it with a cold bore shot.

May I suggest that you look into NRA F-class Rifle competition as a training ground. Compete with yourself, and enjoy.

Hopefully you understood my comment to mean like when we were kids blasting cans with our .22's.

Hitting a can at 300 meters yeah that's skills.

Appreciate the link.