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03Lightningrocks wrote:Wow!!! These stories just keep on popping up! Like I said the last time. It gives me serious pause about my Kahr P380. Heck... it makes a feller wonder about his 9mm.

It is indeed prudent to reevaluate one's weapon choice in light of real life events to see how you might fare if you found yourself facing a similar adversary. If 17 rounds of .40 S&W took 4 minutes to stop a felon, one might consider how many rounds of .380 it would take, how quickly those could be delivered - and if that many rounds would even be available without a time out and a visit to an ammo counter.

There is a reason why folks who have been there when these types of events were happening often choose to carry the biggest gun in the biggest caliber that they can conceal on their bodies. They know that really bad people are incredibly hard to stop in a time frame short enough to do them any good.

Little guns in little calibers don't get the job done with anything close to a frequency that might provide some comfort. A more powerful handgun provides a better chance (not a certainty by any means) of surviving an encounter against a determined or drugged up adversary.

Lots of folks still count on bad guys falling down like the ones in the movies when hit with a small caliber round or two. Folks who have seen the results of little gun and big gun use up close and personal don't harbor any such illusions and find the inconvenience of a larger weapon envelope and a little more weight trivial in comparison to what can be done with it when the chips are down.

SRH78 wrote:

74novaman wrote:4 minutes is more than enough time to try to kill who shot you.

Exactly. I have said it many times but handguns are a compromise and we use them only because they are convenient. The body can take a lot and continue to function for a short time and a lot can happen in a short time.

A few years ago, I had a group of hogs come by my treestand. The boar out front was probably about 200 pounds or so. I shot him first then proceeded to shoot 4 more smaller pigs. When I shot him, he fell down immediately. When I got down out of the tree and looked over there, he wasn't there. I tracked him down and he had crawled away through some heavy brush and I found him probably 30-35 yards away. He took a 405 grain 45-70 through the chest that destroyed his lungs, broke the far shoulder, and opened a huge exit hole. A full magazine of 40s or 45s wouldn't do that kind of damage, yet he was able to get back up and crawl away, broken shoulder and all.

Damn!

The truth is it doesn't matter. If this officer did have a G17 with this same exact situation, if the first bullet from the officers gun hit the guy in the right place, 1 shot with a 9mm could have stopped it. Heck, even a .22 in the right spot could have stopped it in one shot.

The point is, like others have pointed out, you don't stop shooting until the threat is over.

People have taken hits with a .45 numerous times and have lived.

It's about shot placement and luck! 9mm, 40, .357 sig, .45 ACP or heck .45 GAP all work if bullet hits in those magic sweet spots that instantly turn the BG's life switch off. Also, any of the above can miss all those spots and the fight continues.

I carry a G19 9mm right now and I have full faith that it can help to save my life. I will soon be carrying a G23 .40 and will feel just as safe with it.

magillapd wrote: I will soon be carrying a G23 .40 and will feel just as safe with it.

Unless you fix a light to it...

magillapd wrote:The truth is it doesn't matter. If this officer did have a G17 with this same exact situation, if the first bullet from the officers gun hit the guy in the right place, 1 shot with a 9mm could have stopped it. Heck, even a .22 in the right spot could have stopped it in one shot.

The point is, like others have pointed out, you don't stop shooting until the threat is over.

People have taken hits with a .45 numerous times and have lived.

It's about shot placement and luck! 9mm, 40, .357 sig, .45 ACP or heck .45 GAP all work if bullet hits in those magic sweet spots that instantly turn the BG's life switch off. Also, any of the above can miss all those spots and the fight continues.

I carry a G19 9mm right now and I have full faith that it can help to save my life. I will soon be carrying a G23 .40 and will feel just as safe with it.

If hitting those"magic sweet spots" was easy, everybody would be doing it.

The fact is they're few, tiny, and far between.

In a real fight when everyone is moving and shooting, both skill and luck are needed to put a round in a place that instantly drops the opponent. That's why it doesn't happen often, and one shot stops are the exception rather than the rule when facing a determined, deranged, or drugged up adversary.

Excaliber wrote:In a real fight when everyone is moving and shooting, both skill and luck are needed to put a round in a place that instantly drops the opponent. That's why it doesn't happen often, and one shot stops are the exception rather than the rule when facing a determined, deranged, or drugged up adversary.

Worse, the CHL qualification target rewards students for shooting less effective areas of the torso.


The old CHL target wasn't perfect but it was a lot better than current targets.

Does anyone know why DPS switched to a less anatomically relevant target? It seems like a step backwards for good training.

SRH78 wrote:

74novaman wrote:4 minutes is more than enough time to try to kill who shot you.

Exactly. I have said it many times but handguns are a compromise and we use them only because they are convenient. The body can take a lot and continue to function for a short time and a lot can happen in a short time.

A few years ago, I had a group of hogs come by my treestand. The boar out front was probably about 200 pounds or so. I shot him first then proceeded to shoot 4 more smaller pigs. When I shot him, he fell down immediately. When I got down out of the tree and looked over there, he wasn't there. I tracked him down and he had crawled away through some heavy brush and I found him probably 30-35 yards away. He took a 405 grain 45-70 through the chest that destroyed his lungs, broke the far shoulder, and opened a huge exit hole. A full magazine of 40s or 45s wouldn't do that kind of damage, yet he was able to get back up and crawl away, broken shoulder and all.

Learned something about hunting hogs, didn't you?

Always check before you come down from the tree.

OldCurlyWolf wrote:Learned something about hunting hogs, didn't you?

Always check before you come down from the tree.

I was looking around as I came down. I also had a .454 on my hip. A run in with a very large and very territorial boar years ago taught me not to take them lightly. Also, an old accuantance of mine has a video of him shooting a trapped hog with a 44 magnum. He let it out only to watch it run off and it was still making hay when it hit the treeline on the other side of the field.

Where this boar was at when he went down, he only had to crawl a few feet to be out of sight which is what I assumed happened. I assumed wrong. Anyways, as it relates to this thread, that boar was about the size of an average man. If he could continue on after suffering a devastating wound from a 45 caliber rifle, there is no way I would claim a handgun would quickly stop a determined attacker with shots to the chest.

I have watched 135 pound whitetail deer run over a hundred yards after having the heart blown out by a 30.06.

tbrown wrote:

Excaliber wrote:In a real fight when everyone is moving and shooting, both skill and luck are needed to put a round in a place that instantly drops the opponent. That's why it doesn't happen often, and one shot stops are the exception rather than the rule when facing a determined, deranged, or drugged up adversary.

Worse, the CHL qualification target rewards students for shooting less effective areas of the torso.


The old CHL target wasn't perfect but it was a lot better than current targets.

Does anyone know why DPS switched to a less anatomically relevant target? It seems like a step backwards for good training.

Wow!!! How do they add up the score on the new target? That is strange. I am curious about why also.

If they're not going to use a target that represents vitals because they're worried about offending someone, they might as well go all the way and get rid of the silhouette. Just have B-27 sized oval scoring rings on a blank piece of paper.

Center of mass is somewhere around the navel. Good hits are in the upper chest, not in the gut.

I believe this is an old style target. TCLEOSE requires qualification with a TQ-19 or equivalent target. This is the NRA version of the TQ-19



Here is the qualifications for TCLEOSE http://www.teex.com/publicsafety/docume ... ations.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that also shows the target and scoring

Good points. Where did the bullets hit? Shooting to stop is a lot like real estate. Location, location, location.

bayouhazard wrote:Good points. Where did the bullets hit? Shooting to stop is a lot like real estate. Location, location, location.

You are right, it location, location, location. Here is one story of a kid who shot a home invader with a .22 rifle. Two shots, dead on the scene. Read another recently about a home owner who shot a burglar one time 9mm, dead. Another a few months ago of a woman who shot through a door with a .32, same result, dead. All this talk about only .45 will do, is just that, talk.

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/9 ... er-Killed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JJVP wrote:

bayouhazard wrote:Good points. Where did the bullets hit? Shooting to stop is a lot like real estate. Location, location, location.

You are right, it location, location, location. Here is one story of a kid who shot a home invader with a .22 rifle. Two shots, dead on the scene. Read another recently about a home owner who shot a burglar one time 9mm, dead. Another a few months ago of a woman who shot through a door with a .32, same result, dead. All this talk about only .45 will do, is just that, talk.

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/9 ... er-Killed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the case of the 22, yes, he was found dead but he lasted long enough to inflict a lethal wound had he been armed and dedicated to the attack. The goal in a defensive shooting is not to kill the threat. It is to stop them. Some people give up easily, others do not. Killing and stopping are very different things.