TexasCHLforum.com

The Annoyed Man wrote:

74novaman wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:Well, it would seem to me that a carbine might be next to useless in a car unless it was a folder. Yes, it can be difficult to draw a holstered pistol in a car, but wouldn't a "pistol" with a 16" barrel and a buttstock be even more difficult to bring to bear?

I did specify that for my purposes, I was refering to SBRd, mostly folding stock carbines.

Man.....I've got to stop skimming over posts and start actually reading them. I guess I'm a bit distracted today. Sorry.

Its cool. I agree with you, a 16" carbine doesn't have a ton of advantage over a 16" rifle in a rifle caliber.

When we start getting short and light, it becomes a different game altogether.

For example:

Soviet PPS-43. 7.62x25 Tokarev...



British Sterling: 9mm,


H&K USC45. .45 acp,



Uzi in 9mm


These are more the type of gun I was thinking would be ideal to fill the role of a PPC.

Specter was cool but failed, it was so revolutionary at his days.




More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectre_M4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

KRIS is cool too:


Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDI_Vector" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think they can fill a fairly useful niche in the home and personal defense world. As a lot of people around here know, I'm a fairly strong proponent of the Kel-Tec Sub2K as a PDW. Why?

1. Concealability: It folds up in half and stores in a 15" laptop bag, with mags. Great for carrying in a car, bug-out bag, etc.
2. Commonality: It can share mags with my larger EDC, a Glock 19.
3. Accuracy: Offhand, I can put rounds on a 6" target at a sustained pace with ease.
4. Simplicity: Blowback operated, easy to load, chamber, fire, strip and clean.
5. Reliability: I've got at least 1200 rounds through mine, with 1 FTF on a round that I discovered had a jacked-up case.
6. Comfort: It is easy to shoot, and my wife is very comfortable with it.
7. Affordability: cost about $350. For $1000, you could have this little carbine ($350), a complimentary pistol (G17/19/26) ($450), a holster for the pistol($50), a bag for the carbine($30), a couple of spare mags (I've found the 33 rd. Korean Glock mags to be perfectly reliable after deburring the feed lips)($50), and some ammo($80). That is a hell of a package that covers the gamut from CCW, in-home defense, car carry, and extended defense out to 100 yards. In an urban environment, do you REALLY ever see yourself shooting past 50 yards?

Now, in no way am I saying that this is the be all, end all self-defense solution. I'm not saying it is better than a pistol and an AR, or a pistol and a shotgun, or a pistol/AR/shotgun combo, etc. But when you consider all the above points together, you can see that it is a pretty potent little package with some nice advantages.

I'll climb down off the soapbox now...

Here's an old thread on this http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=36438

One of my passions is motorcycle touring and I can see a real advantage to having a PCC that would fit into my Pelican case luggage system. I have looked at a couple of options, but have not found anything I really like. I wish that FN would make a 5.7x28 carbine which would fold down to fit a iM2600 case. I guess that is kinda of specific, but I would be all over that if someone produced it. Kel-tec seems to be the only affordable option on the market that looks like it would work for me, but I have not warmed up to them just yet.

karder wrote:One of my passions is motorcycle touring and I can see a real advantage to having a PCC that would fit into my Pelican case luggage system. I have looked at a couple of options, but have not found anything I really like. I wish that FN would make a 5.7x28 carbine which would fold down to fit a iM2600 case. I guess that is kinda of specific, but I would be all over that if someone produced it. Kel-tec seems to be the only affordable option on the market that looks like it would work for me, but I have not warmed up to them just yet.

A short barreled PS90 would do the trick. Not too cheap though...I think one might fit in a large shoe box maybe.

74novaman wrote:An M1 is nice, but I'd still consider it more in the rifle category.

I think for the purposes I listed, an even more compact weapon is desirable.

Have you seen how short the M1 carbine is? Mine seems like a little dinky gun in the hands. But you're right....unless you have the "paratrooper" model, it doesn't fold.

Tam, the folding stock does help. Overall length is still over 27 inches though. That's on par with an AK with a folding stock, but an SBR'd Uzi with the stock collapsed has an overall length of ~18 inches.

In a car particularly, that extra 9 inches you don't have to maneuver is nice.

While I think the M1 carbine can more easily than most rifles be made to fit the PCC niche, I don't view it as a weapon designed FOR that niche, if that makes sense.

Its certainly a valid option for the scenarios discussed however.

There is also the possibilty of doing sbr with a carbine. A ps90 with the barrel chopped down is very maneuverable. Ar pistol with a collapsible stock is good to.

rm9792 wrote:...Ar pistol with a collapsible stock is good to.

That got me to thinking about the Keltec PLR16, but it is a rifle caliber pistol. On the plus side is that it does share magazines with any standard AR15.
9.2" barrel & no buffer tube

AudioSS, that is nice and concealable/manuverable.

That keltec and the Draco AK pistols, much like the m1 carbine, could be adapted to the role of a PCC. The disadvantage I see for the roles I described are: overpenetration in suburbia becomes s concern. They're also likely to be heavier and have a much louder/harder recoil impulse, making them less desirable for a smaller females go to gun.

i love this thread . i have been weighing out the pros and cons for a few months over building a mp5k or some kind of dang tiny sbr carbine .
i usually come back to thinking i should just do a super short .22lr with a suppressor because i know i would shoot it everyday . but at the end of the day im still gonna be googling HK'S and Mac and obsessing over one .
truth is for me (civilian ) i have absolutely no use for one in . i want to say id slide an mp5 under my couch but i would never ever want that thing brought in court , nor would i want it confiscated in the event of home defense .
i would however consider it to be folded up in a bug out bag or some EOW situation.
in the past i would want my AR or mini 14 but those lil subguns are just soo easy to shoot, conceal and light and easy to pack ammo i think a reliable sbr carbine would be my personal choice . then again , a short barrled mini draco would be a sick packer too ....
but the only scenario i can imagine to validate a pistol caliber short carbine ( for me /non-professional) would be an, on-foot god awful end of world situation
( which then again would bring me back to a .22lr for hunting small meals ..... lol
truth is subguns & sbr carbines are just awesome if you have the means and place to blast one you probably already have more than one , and hopefully will never ever use it for real
they definitely have their place for sure . and if you already have your 3 basic food groups pistol-rifle-shotgun, then you need dessert

I have 2 PCC -- 9mm RRA SBR - AR format - SO fun, and stinking accurate - took it to a girl's night out, and it was a hit with the ladies. Have a reflex site on it that I LOVE as long as I remove the polarizing filter when I have my polarized RX safety glasses on.

Then I have my baby .357 Marlin Lever Action. This was my hunting rifle as a teen. I have taken a couple deer with it (one with .38 pistol hand loads ), and plinked at many squirrel, knot hole, and turtle. I had not shot it for a long time, and had forgotten how much fun it was. My daughter loves it too.